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What happens next? (some spoilers)

Fatal Frame Project Zero Endings Question Kirie Himuro

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#21 OFFLINE   hermit-dragon

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:11 PM

I get that, but one thing to remember... These are religious nuts we are dealing with. These rituals are part of thier religions that the local people believed in wholeheartedly. Whats to say that Kirie or Sai didn't become yokai for the reasons mentioned above and they just BELIEVED that the ritual had to be complered to lift thier curses? I mean the ghosts themselves dictate what it takes to lay them to rest right?(17year old) Kirie didn't seem to care if the curse was lifted as long as she could keep Mafuyuu... And Sae just wanted Yae to com back and finish the ritual so they would be together forever.

I see more of the repentance in FF2 than we see any manifestation of the Malace in 1... But in both cases, it could very well be the result of the curse by a couple of religious fanatic( and sadly highly powerful spiritual) vengeful ghosts.

#22 OFFLINE   midwinter

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:59 PM

I think Sae's case is the only one where it's ambiguous, and then only because what she wants and what the ritual requires are the same. In Kirie's case it doesn't seem to make a difference whether Mafuyu stays with her or not - it's the rope shrine maiden/holy mirror combination that seals the deal. Same with Reika - she's defeated and her eyes are closed, but she still needs to be sent off in the boat before the dead can move on - and Sakuya - she has to wear the mask and become the conduit for all the souls, which is what she explicitly doesn't want (as far as anything's explicit with Sakuya).

 

I mean, in either case the form of the ritual is what ultimately puts an end to the curse, so it seems kind of like an unnecessary complication, like you have to twist to come up with reasons for why the rituals would still appear to work in all four games, when the much simpler explanation is that they actually do work, no extra interpretation necessary.



#23 OFFLINE   AnimalLover47999

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 03:29 PM

I still believe that all of the curses from the games are permanently put to rest.  I don't see Shibata making a revisit to 1 or 3 unless in a remake and it isn't in this series' style to basically confirm that the curses will happen again and have no one to stop it or to basically have another game with the exact same story just different characters (with Kirie it's confirmed to be permanently sealed,

 

With 2 it is left ambiguous but I always felt that the dam halted the Abyss from ever spreading again because of the fact that Mio is able to escape out of the boundaries of the Repentance by going underground and then back out at a spot that wasn't effected by it (since the Repentance didn't effect the area underground (and since I remember a note saying that if you fly over the area you see thick fog and mist but are still able to fly over it) then I think the Repentance only effects the ground level.

 

With Reika I get the feeling that it was more her desires and longing that drew people into the Manor of Sleep rather than the power of the Unleashing.  And since the Unleashing was sealed into the dream manor if there are no spirits that can be corrupted by it to draw living people into the manor (since they all crossed over into the afterlife at the end of 3) then it can't spread into the real world ever again.

 

And with 4 the disaster wasn't a case of having to perform a sacrifice to prevent a disaster from happening.  Rather it was the disaster happened because of a disease that can only happen on that island (I'm guessing Marie and Tomoe just died because of the proximity they were in to Rougetsu island and the moon being "troubled"?) and with the island now being abandoned and all the spirits of it put to rest then the Day without Suffering can never happen again.

 

Spirit Camera is just confusing because the ritual is entirely luck based and was going to fail eventually (and if that's the case it probably would have been smarter just to up and leave their village and move somewhere else.  I mean if it's certain it will fail eventually then staying around to try to keep it from spreading would be pointless and you may as well just leave and live a peaceful normal life somewhere far away) and the way it's resolved is entirely by putting the Woman in Black at peace by exorcizing her spirit and reuniting her with Maya thus freeing all the souls in the sealed off diary manor (and even then it's kind of ambiguous on what happens to the main character because in Hard Mode you get a note from the other Maya that says that while she is purified she is very grateful to you for cleansing her and thus she doesn't want to let you go and the diary says Never Escape thus to me implying she might bring you back into the diary to be with her and Maya.)



#24 OFFLINE   NightWynx

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:58 AM

I have nothing to add to the intellectual discourse and I can only speculate (however it's nice to read your opinions on this like pkstorm1up and midwinter's) but just like Yashuu said, I would love to use this 'ambiguous' ritual scenarios in future plot. A spin-off or something that's a fragment of earlier games. I know it's pretty unlikely given the creators' single-mindedness to formulate one story after another with the Camera Obscura and f*cked-up rituals as the only consistent factor throughout the five games but it's interesting to create a story out of it. 

 

I've read a few fanfics about this actually and some have really good ideas. There's this fic centered around Miku searching the old notes of Junsei Takamine and stumbling upon the urban legend of the Lost Village. The Malice in Minakami has returned and her connection as a direct descendant of the Kurosawa family gave her visions of some sort..I can't remember the exact details, but it has good premises. Also a story with Dr. Asou on it would be so cool! His game may be related to FF4 or 1. 

 

Anyway, I hope they furnish a material like that. It could be a visual novel or some DS/indie game or even a manga anthology. Keeping my fingers crossed for this :) 


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#25 OFFLINE   AnimalLover47999

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 06:26 PM

I don't ever want to see anything Minakami village related in the games again.  I love that story and it is perfect the way it is.  They have spent enough time on that game and its story.  Move on to something new please.

 

I prefer conclusive endings to be honest.  I don't like the idea of something not quite adding up.



#26 OFFLINE   Cursed Lemon

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 04:49 PM

I'm not sure how someone can assume that there isn't actually a metaphysical evil driving the existence of the ghosts in at least the first two games. It doesn't have to be "hell" necessarily, but you see with your own eyes a dark force spilling out of the ritual sites in the first two games specifically when the ceremonies fail - and those places are put to rest when the rituals are properly completed. 

 

The third game is a bit more dubious about it. The dream manor is suggested to be the place where any individual who is tragedy-struck can be lured to in their sleep; it is not just confined to those who have been to the manor's physical remains and then "infect" other people by dreaming about them. This gives it a reputation much more like a perpetual urban legend. However, as the manor was a real place, it is unclear what happens to lonesome victims of misfortune like Yoshino after Reika's ghost is soothed and all of the spirits are allowed to cross over. Does the mansion's ghostly existence simply disappear once our heroes wake up? It is said that victims follow their loved ones into the manor, hoping to see them again. This leaves us with two possible conclusions - that the victims are simply hallucinating (does not seem to be the case, given the ending), or that the Manor of Sleep was built upon the entire world's (or at least Japan's) gateway to the other side. The ritual itself, meanwhile, has a supernatural component. 

 

The fourth game is somewhat difficult to analyze. The Kiraigou tradition was stopped specifically because of the Day Without Suffering, but the reasons for why Shigeto Haibara resurrected the ritual in 1970 are not clear. It is apparent that the ritual is unnecessary, as there were no disasters between the first and second Days Without Suffering, so in this case we can safely assume that these disasters are a result of calling the other side to the physical world, rather than the other side trying to burst into this plane of existence of its own volition. It is a ritual of curiosity, rather than necessity. That said, however, it is impossible to explain the disasters in the game without some kind of supernatural force overwhelming the Utsuwa/Kanade and being spread as an honest-to-goodness curse among the islanders. 

 

Even going beyond all of that, though, all four games resolve themselves upon the proper resolution of the ritual that failed. If this were simply a case of many individual ghosts suffering in their own unique way, then it stands to reason that completing the ritual would only soothe our main antagonists, while other ghosts who perhaps committed suicide would be left in their haunted state. Many of the ghosts have not risen due to unfinished business, but rather they were simply killed by this or that thing and their spirits are, for what can only be assumed to be the evil permeating their locations, unable to cross into peaceful death. Though, Japan seems to have a view of ghosts which allows them to exist solely by the intensity of their emotions before death; fear, severe sorrow, insanity, etc. 

 

The issue of the rituals never needing to be performed again in the first three games is an interesting one, to be sure. The second game, especially, provides very little reason for us to believe that another disaster would not occur in the years following Sae and Mayu's sacrifice. FF3 has vaguely similar implications, but it is hard to pin down exactly whose interest the ritual was serving, for we don't know precisely whose "pain" was being etched into the Priestess to take with her to the other world, or whether it was even necessary at all that those who were mourning needed to shed their pain. In that respect, it almost seems like a Kuze "public service". The theory presented here in this thread that Kirie in her corporeal (sort of) form would guard the gate to Hell for the rest of eternity, with the help of Mafuyu, is somewhat plausible and I think I can accept that. 



#27 OFFLINE   Homuranagi

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 07:15 PM

Duh nuh... duh nuh... do you hear the jaws snapping? The jaws... of a needlessly long post... BYEOOOOW

 

The third game is a bit more dubious about it. The dream manor is suggested to be the place where any individual who is tragedy-struck can be lured to in their sleep; it is not just confined to those who have been to the manor's physical remains and then "infect" other people by dreaming about them. This gives it a reputation much more like a perpetual urban legend. However, as the manor was a real place, it is unclear what happens to lonesome victims of misfortune like Yoshino after Reika's ghost is soothed and all of the spirits are allowed to cross over. Does the mansion's ghostly existence simply disappear once our heroes wake up? It is said that victims follow their loved ones into the manor, hoping to see them again. This leaves us with two possible conclusions - that the victims are simply hallucinating (does not seem to be the case, given the ending), or that the Manor of Sleep was built upon the entire world's (or at least Japan's) gateway to the other side. The ritual itself, meanwhile, has a supernatural component.

 

Not quite anyone "tragedy-struck", but more specifically people who blame themselves for something so deeply that it becomes an obsession. As they obsess they create a kind of gateway to the Rift through their dreams of their lost loved one, which is what the Kuzes were trying to prevent with their rituals. Obviously this didn't work out, and Reika ended up failing and bringing down the Unleashing with her. She was in a dream herself, trying to stop things getting any worse, but as usual things go from bad to worse and it ends up spreading to the real world anyway, via people being called into the dream, which has a lot more to do with the beginning of the curse than the physical ruins appear to. I haven't played FF3 in a long time, so I'm not sure if the above is totally correct, but let's assume that it is for now.

 

I don't think the idea is supposed to be that the dream manor ceases to exist; I think that once Reika is pacified and sent to the other side the curse is lifted and therefore the manor is left sealed in the dream as it was originally intended to be, before Reika started spreading her curse to the outside world, so the malignant forces (miasma) can't spread any further, now that Reika's not about to reflect it back onto the physical world (which will cause people to stop being lured into the dream). The Manor of Sleep definitely does have a connection to the other side, though: the "other world" is traditionally viewed as being on the other side of the sea - the one around back of the shrine, where Reika is sent off with Kaname - and the shrine is pretty much a physical (...geographical?) manifestation of this. Kind of like a metaphorical border between dimensions, only I'm not sure you could even call this metaphorical. The tattoos are a physical manifestation of the pain people feel, and by sending it over to the other side with the priestess it would be taken out of the real world, which is why the curse is broken, and why Yuu taking over Rei's tattoos gets rid of that little mess. If simply sending Reika would break the entire curse, not just on herself but the others afflicted with it, there would be no need for Yuu to do this - in fact, he should be too late to do so, since Reika has been sent already. So it's clearly more than just Reika involved in this one, and simply pacifying her will not remove the source of the curse itself.

 

So, will completing the ritual fix this one? Maybe not entirely (people will likely continue to call to the dead in their dreams), but it will certainly be on a much, much smaller, and probably far less deadly, scale. Which is surely always a good thing.

 

 The fourth game is somewhat difficult to analyze. The Kiraigou tradition was stopped specifically because of the Day Without Suffering, but the reasons for why Shigeto Haibara resurrected the ritual in 1970 are not clear. It is apparent that the ritual is unnecessary, as there were no disasters between the first and second Days Without Suffering, so in this case we can safely assume that these disasters are a result of calling the other side to the physical world, rather than the other side trying to burst into this plane of existence of its own volition. It is a ritual of curiosity, rather than necessity. That said, however, it is impossible to explain the disasters in the game without some kind of supernatural force overwhelming the Utsuwa/Kanade and being spread as an honest-to-goodness curse among the islanders. 

 

The reasons are perfectly clear, actually. His daughter was suffering from an inevitably fatal, incurable illness that also took his wife's life, and he had dedicated his life to researching and trying to cure it. It was his family that had been in charge of the Kiraigou previously, and they used it as a kind of spiritual cure for Getsuyuu, since obviously there was no medical method, and Shigeto thought of it as his duty to research a cure using both modern medicine and traditional methods (ie the ritual). To quote him directly:

 

"...The legend of that disaster is an awful one. But if I am to beat Getsuyuu, I have no choice but to venture into the taboo."

 

"The Mask of the Lunar Eclipse was feared and seen as taboo since it was what made the maiden Bloom, causing the Day Without Suffering that destroyed the island. However, a Kiraigou using the true MotLE will put the Utsuwa... my gravely ill daughter on the path to recovery."

 

etc.

 

Obviously he thought there was something behind it more that a "curiosity", and judging by the ending I would agree. It's performing Sakuya's Kiraigou properly that ends up not only sending her but all of the other souls on the island, so obviously it was doing something right. Had the ritual been done correctly it may well have helped; we have no way of knowing. What we do know is that performing the ritual again makes her worse, and performing it properly makes her better.

 

With regards to the ritual being necessary or not to prevent the disasters... Each person's soul is supposed to have its own lunar melody, which is apparently weak by itself. They constantly bring up the theme of music being related to memory and lunar melody being a sort of musical thing, so I don't think it's too wild of a leap to make to assume that the lunar melody becoming somehow messed up is related to their memory starting to go, and this having a connection to the onset of the disease (since music therapy was shown to have slightly beneficial effects, maybe it was "tuning" their lunar melody and restoring it to normal). The Tsukimori maidens also looked out for girls with strong lunar melodies when they were selecting the Kanade, which you could imagine to be because they would be less susceptible to the sudden flood of lunar melody from the souls, and therefore less likely to become ill or even Bloom.

 

The purpose of the Kiraigou was to send the souls of the dead that had accumulated in and around the island so they could move on to the afterlife. Obviously with no one performing the ritual this couldn't happen, so they had nowhere to go. There are also mentions of lunar melodies resonating with each other and becoming stronger, which wouldn't be difficult to tie to how a Getsuyuu crisis could emerge and spread more quickly than ever - and without the souls being sent there would be no way to resolve it. So, if indeed it was related to this, and the lack of Kiraigou was actually causing a Getsuyuu epidemic, you can hardly call it "unnecessary". It may actually be the only reason the island (and perhaps surrounding ones) hadn't been wiped out long ago. The Kiraigou may have been stopped because it failed and caused the DWoS, but their fear of this happening again might actually be what ended up ruining them.

 

As to whether or not the curse/disease/whatever is resolved after Sakuya's final, soothing Kiraigou? I think so. If it's true that Getsuyuu is either caused or worsened by the unsent souls resonating, then it's no longer an issue, since they've all been sent. If people move back in and start inhabiting the island again, though, that is when there may be issues. Can't see anyone wanting to live on an island known for its previous residents being wiped out by a ghost carrying a deadly disease, but... every horror film has to start somewhere.

 

I think the main difference between the rituals of 1 and 2 is that Kirie is clearly shown to be taking over the role, and intends to do so for eternity. 2 seems to imply that only bursts of energy created from sacrifices are what keep the Abyss appeased, rather than there being some way to seal it off for good, like using Kirie or sealing the area away in a dream. All of the other curses can be considered resolved, at least for the most part, by the end of their game... except 2. It seems like 1 and 3's rituals were preventative measures to stop something happening to begin with, but 2's was to weaken and appease something so it didn't get any worse, rather than stopping it altogether (after all, you can see how the Abyss and its darkness have an effect on the region even before the Repentance occurs).

 

4 is more similar to 2 than the others are, I think, but in that case there's an actual way to resolve it, by essentially removing the factor that is fanning the flames. With 2... what can you really do to stop a huge crater in the ground that serves as a gateway to the underworld? If there's no way to seal it, only pacify it temporarily, it's almost inevitable that someday it's going to need soothing again... and what happens then? It's implied that if Mio and Mayu hadn't performed the ritual the Darkness would simply have kept spreading across the area with each earthquake (ie rumble from the Abyss) - so what is stopping this from happening again the next time it decides it wants a sacrifice, as opposed to a gateway that can be sealed, or at least removed from the equation? Sounds dodgy to me. You could maybe imply that the energy released by what was pretty much a joint sacrifice by both sets of twins could have had a greater effect than a garden variety sacrifice, but surely even that can't last forever? It may not happen tomorrow, or next year, but who's to say it won't happen again someday? 2 overall seemed more like a personal resolution for the twins than of the actual hellish predicament... just a temporary placation. In that way it differs from the others.

 

I've not even tried rereading what I just wrote, so there's a good chance it's turned into a mangled mess. Let's try it out. Whoever figures it out first gets a lollipop.


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#28 OFFLINE   Cursed Lemon

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 10:00 PM

That is true about Shigeto's motivations, I'd gotten my wires crossed. 

 

What is the source that says that dead souls linger on the island until they are soothed by the ritual? That's not in-game information, is it? 



#29 OFFLINE   AnimalLover47999

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 04:07 AM

I just say screw it and assume the flooding is what keeps the Abyss from spreading from now on.  The reason for this is because 2 implies one can escape the boundaries of the village through the underground passge so I think it being flooded prevents the Darkness from escaping the sealed away village.  Kind of ambigous but I think it is reasonably possible.  Either that or Chelsea's idea of the double ritual sealing it for longer (or in this case forever) could be it too.

 

3's is what confuses me the most honestly.  If Reika's cursed desires are what is pulling people who feel guilty over a loved one's death into the manor then why was the ritual needed in the first place?



#30 OFFLINE   midwinter

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 11:18 AM

What is the source that says that dead souls linger on the island until they are soothed by the ritual? That's not in-game information, is it? 

 

Well, it is pretty much what happens in the game, isn't it? The ghosts all linger on the island until the ritual opens the gate to the underworld and the Utsuwa guides them through it. I don't think any game notes come out and say it simply like that (because the game notes in FF4 never say anything simply :rolleyes: ), but there are a few that I think imply it:

 

Legend of the Tsukimori Song:

 

At times when the moon is troubled, it will Resonate, culminating in the Blooming. When the moon is troubled, the Tsukimori family soothes the raging moon and the lost souls with the Tsukimori Song. Once the song reaches those souls, they may return to the Spirit World through the moon.

 

Yomotsuki Family Secret Records:

 

The essential point of the Kiraigou is the Afterlife. The Afterlife is where the souls continue walking down the path of departing souls to their origin. The path is the holy area lit by the moon.

 

[...]

 

The dead spirits that were led to the moon rest in the Utsuwa made to wear the mask, meaning that they shall become the living dead.

 

So, like, the moon is the big halfway-house where all the dead souls go, but if the Kiraigou bus doesn't come and take them to the big city before the next group arrives, things get pretty rowdy (Resonating) and the neighbours can't sleep and start getting stressed as well (Getsuyuu Syndrome), and when the bus does finally arrive everyone's too busy yelling and trashing the place to leave, the poor driver (Utsuwa) gets beaten up, and everything gets worse. If that happens you need the extra-large Tsukimori bus with comforting ambient music to settle everyone down and get the halfway house looking respectable again.

 

Excellent analogy © midwinter 2013.

 

3's is what confuses me the most honestly.  If Reika's cursed desires are what is pulling people who feel guilty over a loved one's death into the manor then why was the ritual needed in the first place?

 The "Piercing the Soul Tome" says:

 

If the feelings of loss for those who crossed to the other side begin to spill into dreams, they shall bring great trouble in this world.

 

And Dr. Asou's note "The Other World" says:

 

There they have many legends related to dreams. For example, dreams are called "the Rift" and traverse "the border between the Other world and the real world." If you continue to have nightmares, the deceased apparently return from the underworld.

The shrine exists in order to prevent the nightmares. There resides a priestess who sleeps in the Rift and will take on the nightmare.

 

I think dreaming about the dead was the original problem, because it opened a sort of bridge between the land of the living and the land of the dead, pretty much as it does in FF3 when all the ghosts start to appear in Rei's house. Passing the dream on to somebody who could stay in the Rift forever without waking up, someone who had no connection left to the real world, would make sure the traffic was strictly one-way and the dead couldn't return. All that predated the Unleashing and was the reason people performed the ritual in the first place.

 

What Reika added to the mix was the tattoos, which are volatile and spread aggressively if not contained, and Reika herself actively pursued people to pass on the tattoos and make them spread.


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#31 OFFLINE   AnimalLover47999

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 09:48 PM

Thanks that makes sense.  But now that the Kuze family is no longer active what is to keep people from being troubled by dreams of their loved ones now?  How did sending Reika off fix the original problem?



#32 OFFLINE   midwinter

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 05:37 PM

I saw this and thought of you guys! From the Fanbook, in a section called Pursuing Zero, there's a section at the end that says:

 

 

In actuality, "Zero" doesn't end. In other words, the rituals are performed once every few years, and even though for a time they are complete, a new sacrifice will be needed. Minakami Village's Hellish Abyss and Himuro Mansion's Hell Gate will continue to be painted with the colour of darkness for eternity. And people will be burdened with fates like that of Mio and Miku, and be pulled in by them, becoming new sacrifices.

 

So obviously the developers thought about this as well.

 

ETA:

 

Okay pk, you obviously edited your post at some point, because last time I was here your extra questions weren't. :P Sending Reika off doesn't solve the original problem, no. But I think we can assume that problem was on a much, much smaller scale even than the tattooed curse. I mean, Rei's grief and guilt over Yuu's death are important enough to be central to the story, but she still doesn't start having Rifty dreams spontaneously. Miku never has them after Mafuyu's death, either. It's not something that happens every time someone's sad about a loved one's death. I think it probably takes a very specific state of mind and a fairly unusual situation before it starts affecting someone, and without added aspect of the curse to hold them down, I think there's also a much greater chance of recovery for anyone affected.



#33 OFFLINE   MacabrelleEnvy

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 02:47 AM

I just assumed that Kirie would take over watching the gate eternally. That and maybe thats why so many other locations also have some "gate to hell", because one hotspot is sealed up/abandoned so another one forms? What if this ultimate evil is making its way into the world and thats why these locations arise in the first place?





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