14 replies to this topic

[ナガクラ]

Personally... I would say no. What would a Crimson Butterfly be doing in the Manner of Sleep to begin with? It's not dead and its up in the heavens with all the others (plot hole maybe?). There is nothing supporting the fact that it's Mayu like a whisper or voice because they do talk (refer to cannon and promise endings and the ending to Zero 4D). I'm a bit under the impression that it is the twins in the game (the only twins you see in the game).

[midwinter]

Yes, I think it was, because when you develop this photo the description says: "A girl stands watching over her where the butterfly was flying." Even without that, the picture establishes that Mayu is present with Mio in some way, and she has plenty of reason to want to guide Kei and help him. The Osaka twins seem quite absorbed in their own little world; they're not showing any active desire to help Kei, only to tell him about their pain.
 
Besides which, I kind of think it's more meaningful if the butterfly is Mayu trying to help Kei and save Mio, rather than some random twin who isn't even named in the game deciding to unlock doors for a man she's never seen before.
 

What would a Crimson Butterfly be doing in the Manner of Sleep to begin with? It's not dead and its up in the heavens with all the others (plot hole maybe?).

 
I feel like that is a whole separate question that only complicates this discussion. Whether it makes sense or not, there is a butterfly in the Manor, and given that I'd say it's as likely to be Mayu as Musubi.

[Emi]

I would like to say yes, because I like the idea of it being Mayu. As far as the butterfly being their, remember this dream realm is slightly a hell of the tormented Person's own making. So whether or not the butterfly is actually the spirit of mayu or musabi, it is a representation of the silent suffering and lost that mio & tsuzuri both experienced. At least, my thoughts on that matter. like everything else in the manor, while it may have been 'helpful' to Kei, it was still leading him deeper and deeper into the mansion, enabling him to succumb to the curse as well.

[Magamdy]

I would like it to be Mayu, and I even think it is Mayu, but that means it is a plot hole. First I would say: It's just all a dream, so anything that appears in the Manor isn't 'real', but well, in the end Rei meets Yuu  who turns out to be the real deal spirit. So Mayu being in that manor would be possible, if not for the fact that she should have crossed on the the other side way earlier. Her buteerfly transformation should have been an insta-ticket to heaven.

But while saying this... Mafuyu appears in the mansion, and he died even before Mayu! (Assuming here he died, we can't be certain of course..but it is assumed. I wonder what he did to stay alive in that cave, maybe he ate Kirie). And while saying that, I think Yuu actually also died quite some time before the dreams started. This could either mean that crossing on to the other side is a difficult business for spirits and it takes a lot of time, or that the tattoo curse can still develop after the loved ones already passed, which means the ghosts Miku and Mio see are just braincreations...

 

I don't know, it's all so complicated 

[GregZerO]

I believe that it is Mayu since she appears where the butterfly was on the photo that mid shared above.Also who would want to help Kei find Mio?

 

Also why Mayu is in the Manor of sleep?I don't know but in FF2 ending at the momment when Mio sits alone next to the river we can see a butterfly on her neck which is clearly Mayu.So probably Mayu's soul goes where Mio's soul goes too ,which in this case in Manor of sleep.Just a thought!

[Rheo]

I'm not sure, it's confusing back in FFII about the butterflies unless I've been forgotten about all that. But that would sound like a better idea because it's as if she was there to help them. Without her, it could look like there's nothing much of a help to do anything about being in the mansion.

[Hex]

I would like it to be Mayu, and I even think it is Mayu, but that means it is a plot hole. First I would say: It's just all a dream, so anything that appears in the Manor isn't 'real', but well, in the end Rei meets Yuu  who turns out to be the real deal spirit. So Mayu being in that manor would be possible, if not for the fact that she should have crossed on the the other side way earlier. Her buteerfly transformation should have been an insta-ticket to heaven.

But while saying this... Mafuyu appears in the mansion, and he died even before Mayu! (Assuming here he died, we can't be certain of course..but it is assumed. I wonder what he did to stay alive in that cave, maybe he ate Kirie). And while saying that, I think Yuu actually also died quite some time before the dreams started. This could either mean that crossing on to the other side is a difficult business for spirits and it takes a lot of time, or that the tattoo curse can still develop after the loved ones already passed, which means the ghosts Miku and Mio see are just braincreations...

 

I don't know, it's all so complicated 

 

The way I see it, spirits who have already crossed over can be summoned through the rift by the living, with the Manor acting as a sort of bridge and the Sea of Endless Night a meeting point.  Rei's dreams of Yuu were pulling his spirit away from the Other Side, and his crossing a second time was a metaphorical and literal release from Rei's guilt.  The dead need to be let go for their own peace just as much as the living need to continue living on (or at least that's how I saw it), so the same could apply to Mayu and Mafuyu without causing a plot hole.  

 

So, I like to think the butterfly was Mayu's, too.  It's nice to see her help out for a change.

[FiliusMartis]

I think it was Mayu, and I don't think it causes a plot hole at all.  Like Hex mentioned, the entire premise of the third game was that the spirits of the departed could be called across the Rift by the dreams of the living, ultimately causing ghosts to spill over into the real world. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Kinuma Hirumo's ghost list information indicates that she was called forth by Miku's dreaming.

 

Furthermore, if we remember the entire crux of the second game, it was that the twins become one during the ritual. While some of the documentation is confusing, noting that the butterfly twin passes through to purify the earth while the Remaining stays to watch over the village, none of that undercuts the  fact that the entire point was for them to become one. Thus, Mayu's spirit is forever attached to Mio in some way or another. When Mio becomes trapped in the Manor of Sleep, she essentially pulls Mayu along with her, by the power of the Manor, their bond as Shrine Maidens, or both. It's really the best explanation.

[AnimalLover47999]

Yes I think it is Mayu.  The reason for that is because one Mayu is always with Mio now.  Mayu is the butterfly mark on her neck.  She is her butterfly and is always one with her even if Mio doesn't realize or feel it.  Everywhere Mio goes now Mayu will always be there which is what she's always wanted.  It makes sense because when you take the picture it shows Mayu is there with Mio instead of the butterfly being in the image.

 

Mayu also has a huge reason to help Kei.  One is that he's her uncle and she loves him but even greater is that she loves Mio and doesn't want her to die.  So it makes since for her to be trying to help Kei break the curse.

[Kouta Koikawa]

Perhaps it is Mayu but it makes no sense for her to be in the manor. If the dream manor is partly made up by the person's mind, then it would make sense for the butterfly to be something Kei's mind created. This theory has the problem that it's hard to imagine how or why would Kei imagine a Crimson Butterfly in the manor since he didn't know what happened to Mio and Mayu.

[AnimalLover47999]

It's Mio's dream not Kei's.

[Asou Misaki]

It's Mio's dream not Kei's.

 

Er, I think this is incorrect. Mio is technically trapped in the Manor of Sleep, yes, since as far as I recall (I haven't played in a while), she was showing the same symptoms and whatnot. But the dream we're playing through when Kei is the player-character is Kei's. He's following Mio, just like Rei's following Yuu and Miku's following Mafuyu. Otherwise, he wouldn't have turned into ash on Rei's couch in one of the alternate endings.

[Yashuu]

Well it is Kei's dream, but what pk means is that Kei is experiencing Mio's memories in the All God's section. 

[Asou Misaki]

If that's what was meant, I apologize! It really wasn't apparent at all, since the All Gods section wasn't mentioned. So I assumed it was the dream as a whole that was being referred to.

[AnimalLover47999]

I should have been more specific.  No worries.