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Would you pause the series?


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#1 OFFLINE   GregZerO

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 09:19 PM

So I was wondering,if FF6 is going to be on the same level/direction(or even worst) from FF5,

 

Would you rather put the series on a huge pause with the vague possibility of a new entry/reboot in the late future, or having mediocre games and spin-offs every 2-3 years resolting in a "Silent Hill/Crash Bandicoot/Tenchu/other games with bad evolution" scenario/termination?

 

:rolleyes:


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#2 OFFLINE   Butterflychaser

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 11:18 PM

I'd rather Nintendo give back the IP tbh, but that's unlikely I know

 

I'd rather they relax on producing sequels to refresh and recharge and make something better, but I wouldn't mind some remakes honestly 



#3 OFFLINE   PikaLink91

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 07:28 AM

Pause? .....No?!? I want them to spit out a new game yesterday!


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#4 OFFLINE   Rin

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 06:45 PM

As far as I know, they know what they did wrong in FF5. I would prefer it if they learned from that and made something that went back to the game's roots.

#5 OFFLINE   PikaLink91

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 09:57 PM

I hear that phrase thrown around a lot these days, "going back to a franchise's roots". On what accounts specifcally do you think FF has left its roots? I mean Resident Evil, in the minds of some, went from horror to being more action, but if you ask me FF has stayed relatively the same since 2001. It is still horror, it is still creepy as hell, and the gameplay is still the same, baring a few new additions in each game, but that is how a sequel is supposed to work. Introduce new things while keeping what worked before.

The problem with FF5 was the absolutely mundane amount of backtracking and wild goose chases, with every mission simply being "go find this person", and also there were hardly any puzzles. But those are design shortcomings, not "abandoning the roots".


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#6 OFFLINE   Rin

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 01:17 AM

Those "design shortcomings" are straying from the roots.

When I say that, I mean actually focusing on making the game feel scary and atmospheric. Things like making the story actually feel dark, having the environments not be so bright you don't even really need a flashlight, giving players an actual challenge, and giving you sidequests and reasons to actually replay the game.

Yeah the gameplay has stayed the same, but the quality and effort have dropped. When I say "going back to the roots", I mean making an actual horror game like they have multiple times instead of throwing boobs in our faces and calling it the same thing.
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#7 OFFLINE   PikaLink91

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 06:45 AM

No, they are not, they are just shortcomings. They just need to pull their bother together, that's all. Plus, FF4 was great, so I wouldn't call ONE game being bad "straying from the roots".

Like I pointed out before, FF5 lacked in some aspects, but the creepy atmosphere is something the series can definitely praise itself for keeping consistent throughout the whole thing, no need for change there. The game wasn't too bright in my opinion, and, making the story actually feel dark? Dude, the story focused on suicide, you get to see a girl literally cut her own throat, it don't get much darker than that. That's pretty disturbing right there already, also a reason that I don't get why people are so upset that Nintendo own the series now, I mean it's not like they are toning the creepy factor or the disturbing factor down in any way.

The only thing I will give you, which is also what I will only categorize as a "shortcoming", and which I believe I have mentioned before in other threads, is that there is absolutely no replay value, other than trying to SSS all of the chapters. Take the Hozuki Dolls from 4, that was a concept I had really hoped they'd kept.

So yes, the quality has dropped in SOME aspects, but the core experience has not. I still consider FF5 very much a horror game. And I think you are exaggerating just a bit with boobs being shoved in our faces. I thought the wet meter was just an excuse to make the cloth stick to the characters in order to expose their "features" but in all honesty it didn't bother me at all, especially since you always see your character from behind.

So really, there is nothing to "go back to", they just need the equivalent of a slap on the wrist to say "hey, you were good one game ago.. do that again".


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#8 OFFLINE   Rin

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 07:59 AM

I do consider FF4 to be a good example of the "roots" of the series?? An almost perfect example even, had it not been glitched to all hell. FF5 was the first in the series to disappoint me as it did. I enjoyed playing it, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't the same experience. The environments were pretty, but too well lit.

I do not feel I'm exaggerating. There are quite a few ghosts designed to show large ghost cleavage and I know at least one of them even moans sensually as she floats around you.
A big part of the female cast has a large chest and while it normally doesn't bother me, this time it took away from the immersion. Then as you mentioned the clinging clothes. I prefer not to see an entire buttcrack when playing a horror game. It was designed to be "sexier" rather than "scarier" and I am not a fan of that.

In my opinion, it is not scary and most of the plot and scares seemed very forced and honestly a bit disrespectful at times. The most I will say is that they did have a good idea for the videos on the ghost list. I liked the grainy VHS feeling.
Please keep in mind we're talking about our opinions about a video game on a forum here.

I hope that the next one will look as nice if not nicer than FF5, but will hold my attention, motivate me, and actually unnerve me like FF4 does.
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#9 OFFLINE   Hex

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 01:41 PM

Before 5 came out, I had this feeling if it’d been good (like, FF3 good), I probably would’ve been fine with them ending it there on a high note.  Horror’s hard to continue and keep surprising, especially when you’re so specific like this series, so I’m concerned to see it continue longer than it needs to, as much as I adore these games, because at some point like we’ve already seen, it’s going to lose its identity.  And yet, because 5 was such a fumble, I’d like to see them make up for it with another excellent game, but how realistic that is considering their current mentality, I don’t know.  

 

To add to the conversation above, FF is a much different beast to what it was in 2001.  Sound design isn’t nearly as utilised to suggest things and create tension, the pacing is all but destroyed by marking every bit of progress with a fight (that you’ve done a hundred times and is no longer scary), dark themes are used but handled poorly and made shallow, chapters outright repeat themselves and/or were bad ideas to start with, the story is repetitive and thin, and everyhing’s drenched, quite literally, in this weird softcore porn vibe because arousing people into trying a “horror” game sounded like a good idea.  Not by actually trying to make it scary, which they seem to admit took a backseat.  

 

 

So really, there is nothing to "go back to", they just need the equivalent of a slap on the wrist to say "hey, you were good one game ago.. do that again".

 

Look at some of the team’s final words regarding the future of FF in an interview about 5:

 

 

Ohtani: I have ideas about trying to change Zero. I'd like to have a think about what kind of a Zero we could make that would be played worldwide.

 

Osawa: If we do another, I'd like to make use of those unused things somehow. It would be quite different to the current Zero, though.

 

Sakamoto: *wants to be involved at all and we should be very concerned*

 

It doesn’t sound like they’ll be returning to what worked any time soon.  The director of the series, Shibata, expresses his wish to make another “scary” game, but that’s what 5 was supposed to be.  I have a sinking feeling it isn’t as easy as making them like they used to, there’s a “too many cooks in the kitchen” vibe I get from reading that to believe it could even be pulled off.



#10 OFFLINE   PikaLink91

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 07:46 AM

I know this sounds immature and unserious, but I am the typa guy who wants a series to just keep going and going. For a series like Resident Evil that has directly connected sequels, I can see more of a reason to "end at a point where it makes sense", and yet, that is yet another franchise I don't WANT to ever end.

​Fatal Frame is the same to me. Although the games ARE "connected", they can very much be played indepently, and thus there is no "natural" place to stop the franchise in my opinion. There is no "the story has come to a close" thing, because the story comes to a close in every game. So in my eyes, there is infinite potential as long as they find a way to keep it fresh and tell a good story. I don't want Fatal Frame to ever end. I want it to stay relevant and stay in the race. I want it to be a stable franchise that can, in 2021 celebrate its 20th anniversary, and in 2031 celebrate its 30th anniversary. I don't want FF to ever fall off the map.

​My childish dreams aside, Fatal Frame never lost its identity. Its identity, and its strongest aspect, is its scary atmosphere, and although having a paper thin story, repetative missions, and little actual gameplay to speak of, FF5 still delivers its atmosphere like a boss. FF5 is merely a case of a runner, who has done great, but then stumbles a bit, and just has to get back on track. Like I said before, having ONE bad game, doesn't spell doom or mean you have abandoned what made you great, it just means you have to get it right next time.

​Hex, you have quoted the team saying they want to make "quite a different Zero", and for someone heavily critizising FF5, that sounds like exactly what we need. They can make a "new and different" experience, while still staying true to the source.

​Supposed to be? I was scared shitless in FF5. Not jumpscare, but legitimately chilled to the bone, so I don't know where this "supposed to" comes from. Also, as odd as it may sound, the ghosts fights themselves were never what made the games scary to me. I am most frightened in these games, when I am left alone, because the atmosphere gets to me. When I'm in a fight though, I don't pay attention to said atmosphere, I then solely focus on taking the sucker down. Same with fighting games, I remember Game Theory making a video about how the big tited women in Dead or Alive is a strategically distracting tactic, but while I do myself enjoy the appearance of these busty females, the moment the battle begins, they are just another opponent to me.
​Speaking of, I still don't see where you get softcore porn from in Fatal Frame. Yes, we play as beautiful girls, so what? Remember Miu? She was as flat chested as you can be.


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#11 OFFLINE   Rin

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 08:22 AM

I think you're kind of missing the point. To some of us, the game did not deliver. There are a lot of reasons the game has a soft core porn vibe even on the surface. Maybe it didn't bother you, but the "sexy" factors completely ruined any atmosphere there was.

They admitted they wanted it to be sexy multiple times and while the goal may have been to "make the scares stand out more", it did not do that. It was annoyingly distracting and entirely unnecessary to me. As said above, the dark parts were shallow and not handled correctly, which made the whole thing feel inappropriate at times.

The final boss was kind of really easy compared to every other final boss in the series and that's another thing that bothers me. There wasn't a real sense of danger or feeling of dread for me. Kirie could decimate you in one hit, Reika dove at you 100mph from the sky, Ouse just felt like some hair stuck in a drain that summoned other pieces of hair once in awhile.

I like games that have long lifespans too, but if that's the path they're going down I would kind of actually prefer not to see more than one more.

#12 OFFLINE   PikaLink91

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 08:42 AM

Quite the contrary, I think YOU are missing the point. Fatal Frame women have always been sexy, nothing new about that, and apart from guest character Ayane, none of the characters were more sexy than they usually are, so why it is a problem now I don't understand. I wasn't bothered, because I really didn't think the sex appeal was higher than usually, so if it "ruined the atmosphere completely" for you, then I don't know what to tell ya, you must be very easily distracted. The atmosphere worked perfectly.

​The final boss was a joke yes, but hey, they usually are in horror games.


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#13 OFFLINE   Rin

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 08:54 AM

Please stop talking down to me, I do not appreciate it.

Save for Miu and Rui, every female character had a larger chest than normal and again, you couldn't really see anyone's entire butt before specifically for the sake of being alluring. They quite literally stated they intended for these characters to be sexy. The other protagonists have been beautiful, yes, but I would not say sexy save for the costumes specifically added for fanservice. But even then those have not been in any version I have played and I'm pretty glad they haven't been.

What I am saying is that the heavy insistence on being arousing was incredibly annoying to me and did not make for a scary or fun horror game in the slightest.

#14 OFFLINE   midwinter

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 10:58 AM

Yeah, let's keep it civil, please! /mod hat

Back to the topic - true, the series has always had cute girls in kind of unlikely costumes, but it's never been as in-your-face as in 5. It's not just the mains and side characters like Haruka and Fuyuhi; lots of the ghosts have huge jiggling boobs as well (see Yashuu's sig for more details). Miu is flat-chested, sure, but she gets the most overtly sexual backstory of any character in the series, so she's not a great counterexample. In the other games (except 1 and 3, I think?), you could get panty shots if you were really determined, but this time they just went ahead and put in unavoidable upskirt camera angles. Hell, I don't know why I'm looking for examples when the creators themselves even said they played up the sexiness angle as a selling point - it's not like it's a secret, they're pretty open about it.

Like, maybe if you're used to female-character fanservice from other sources this is NBD, but I bet you'd find it distracting and kind of awkward if we were confronted with Ren's giant bouncing package every time he turned around, or if his costume was a pair of clinging shorts that moulded themselves to his butt cheeks whenever he got wet. For a lot of people, what we got is the same deal. If you play DOA, at least you know what to expect, but Fatal Frame has always been more subtle, and if that's what you're used to then it is distracting. And I think I said this before once, but it's just weird to have the characters so blatantly sexualised in a series where there's never been a kiss on screen and the only main couple old enough to get engaged sleep in separate bedrooms. That's what makes it feel out of place to me.

I do think FF5 had a good atmosphere, and I like that part of it. But for me it pales quickly because there are so many fights that there's hardly any time for tension and suspense to build up, and it felt like the environments didn't get nearly the same attention to detail that they did in the previous games. One of the things I've loved about Fatal Frame is that the creators always seemed to be thinking a lot about how people would move through the environments, what they'd see and hear, where would be the most effective place to put a scare. They knew how to take advantage of the camera angles, and how to get you to go into viewfinder mode in time for a jumpscare, and how to make the environments tell a story by themselves. They had things like the spirit list, which both added replay value and conveyed new information. When I think about the series going back to its roots, that's what I mean.

Re: Greg's original question... I'd rather have a long wait and a really good game at the end of it, but if there's no guarantee of a good game, I think I'd rather have something. I don't want it to spiral down into ignominy with crappy releases, but I definitely don't want 5 to be the last one, either. So I'm going to keep hoping for news. If there's another game and that disappoints as well, maybe I'll change my mind.


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#15 OFFLINE   Hex

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 01:31 PM

Like I said before, having ONE bad game, doesn't spell doom or mean you have abandoned what made you great, it just means you have to get it right next time.

 

I suppose it’s how 5 was bad that makes me concerned.  With all the things that matter, like atmosphere, tension, horror, and story, I don’t think the game delivers.  4 had problems too, but was a solid game still overall.  I can’t say the same about 5, or feel as optimistic after it.

 

Hex, you have quoted the team saying they want to make "quite a different Zero", and for someone heavily critizising FF5, that sounds like exactly what we need. They can make a "new and different" experience, while still staying true to the source.

 

Where do they say that’s what they meant?  There was some push to make changes in the opposite direction already.  Nintendo didn’t want 5 to have a story, Sakamoto joined the team to oversee the “sexy”, and now they want to make something even more different.  I think what we need is something familiar, not a new hybrid of action, guns (they entertained it) and boobs.

 

Supposed to be? I was scared shitless in FF5. Not jumpscare, but legitimately chilled to the bone, so I don't know where this "supposed to" comes from.

 

From my personal opinion.  I agree it has a nice atmosphere, not one I’d necessarily call “scary”, and I’m glad you enjoyed it, but it’s the weakest of the 5 for me. 

 

Speaking of, I still don't see where you get softcore porn from in Fatal Frame. Yes, we play as beautiful girls, so what? Remember Miu? She was as flat chested as you can be.

 

I remember.  I know the bikinis were removed, and we’ve had swimwear before, but they worked it into a story about a 17-year-old girl’s abandonment issues while putting the player in a voyeuristic position to drink it all in, in a game about suicide.  Even just looking at the censored version, it’s distractingly off-tone and ridiculous.  Could you imagine James Sunderland realising the truth about his wife while wearing loose, wet speedos, or posing provocatively because he’s depressed?  Is that the story Fatal Frame should be telling?  

 

Coupled with the spirits of drowned women almost all having heaving cleavages and jiggle physics, lovingly detailed wetness for the ladies, Hisoka being almost comically endowed and several upskirt shots, it’s noticable and distracting.

 



#16 OFFLINE   DecemberMan

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Posted 04 May 2018 - 04:53 PM

Having finished FFV recently, I really don't think the characters were that oversexualized (I know the designers wanted to sexualize them more, but that's not the point). From the beginning the characters showed some flesh here and there (with the exception of the Amakuras), especially in FFIV (Misaki and her bra being visible). In FFV yes, some characters do have large breasts, but they are dressed as they were in the previous games. Even at full wetness not much is shown, honestly (Yuri at max wetness looks like Misaki normally). The big boobed ghosts did not distract me any more than Reika's half naked body. Also, jiggle physics are kind of a norm nowadays and I didn't notice them that much anyway.

 

Just my opinion.



#17 OFFLINE   Butterflychaser

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 01:46 AM

I do feel that, slowly, the games heroines have become less lifelike and more like the DOA characters body wise, starting from 4

I mean if you compare Rei to Misaki for example, two full grown women that's quite a change

I know it could be down to graphical upgrades and Koei always wanted their heroines to be like that, but to me, going back to more down to earth designs would help the feel of the game. Part of the original appeal IMO was these 'normal' people in these situations and I feel making every heroine just so happen to be a glamour model like woman, kind of takes away from that



#18 OFFLINE   Kenshin 4

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 08:49 AM

No, because we as fans of this series sadly don’t have the right to choose.Lets be honest with ourselves each game bombs harder than the other - regarding the sales - whatever KT tries to do. The first 3 games where amazing but te sales where not and they were released on PS2 the besting selling console ever. Then they tried the motion control which was a big deal back then (RE4) but the sales were not the great so they tried remaking the most memorable games in the series which didn’t sell that good then finally they tried the fan service thing with 5 but the sales didn’t increase. They even made a movie and a manga which didn’t help. If it was another series it will be dead long ago.

My point is that we are lucky we got 5 games a remake and a spin-off for a series that sells like this. Someone at KT or Nintendo still believes in the series and i am afraid that this person is Mr. Iwata who passed away 3 years ago.

I will accept any Fatal Frame related game and i want KT and Nintendo to try new things until the series become popular. also I don’t understand what are you guys asking for. Each Fatal Frame game is at least a quality product. You my like some of them less than the others but this doesn’t change the fact that it is a good horror game.

So if you want the series to pause then just don’t buy the game and stop asking for that.

Some of you are really unbelievable...
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#19 OFFLINE   Chou

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 08:33 PM

Honestly, I haven't played 5. I did download the demo on my WiiU and play that (which I think I almost finished but died in a battle and said screw that I'm good, it's 3 am time to try and sleep). However, due to the space constraints on the WiiU,I wasn't ever able to purchase because adulting and budgeting sucks, and I would've had to upgrade my storage and buy the game.

 

From the demo alone, I could tell it didn't feel like the last 4 games. Not saying it was bad, or anything, but honestly... I'm a scaredy cat and like the fewer battles in previous games. This last game seems very battle heavy so, ugh.

 

I just recently started FF4 over (I had to redo everything for my patch, and lost my save file, but that's ok because I remember nothing from the story). I feel quite blessed to have been able to get a copy of this, and so thankful for everyone who did the translation. I would love to see another game on the creepy level that 1-4 are. I realize there's only so much lore that can be used for games like this to have them "connected" in the way they are, but...

 

They are just so dang good, I can't help but want more.


C r I m s o n

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B u t t e r f l I e s

 

Are you leaving

me again

DEAR sister?


#20 OFFLINE   Hex

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 05:11 AM

also I don’t understand what are you guys asking for. Each Fatal Frame game is at least a quality product. You my like some of them less than the others but this doesn’t change the fact that it is a good horror game.

 

So if you want the series to pause then just don’t buy the game and stop asking for that.

Some of you are really unbelievable...

 

I don’t want the series to be paused, but I don’t want to accept a new game regardless of the quality just because we’re lucky to have another sequel either.  I want the games to be exceptional like they were, to be popular or at least healthily run their course.  I know you enjoyed 5, Kenshin, but it was a huge departure for some.  I’ll stop banging on about it though because it’s tiring to read.

 

Regardless, whatever they release next will have my interest.






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