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Chou : (31 July 2018 - 07:46 PM) Not sure who my fav ghost is so far... Kageri & Watashi get the medal for the hardest to battle so far because of teaming up on you. Buuut i've only seen up to chatper 7
midwinter : (31 July 2018 - 08:03 PM) I like that Kageri and Watashi are sort of the reverse of Akane and the Azami doll - with the FF2 twins you have to defeat the real one first, but Kageri takes strength from Watashi
Eisenalex : (31 July 2018 - 08:13 PM) Fuyuko and Kyouko are my favourites.
Eisenalex : (31 July 2018 - 08:14 PM) I find the implications of Fuyuko getting abused and mistreated by Ayako heartbreaking and Kyouko scares me the most with her being wrapped up and hanging from the ceiling in that tiny little... lab.
midwinter : (31 July 2018 - 08:27 PM) the lab is so creepy
midwinter : (31 July 2018 - 08:28 PM) on the one hand i want to know what all the Haibara experiments were about, but on the other they're probably more unsettling without explanation
Eisenalex : (31 July 2018 - 08:32 PM) Yes, I can't imagine any explanations improving upon the experience.
Eisenalex : (31 July 2018 - 08:36 PM) The thing with Fuyuko is: I imagine 'Nurse' being a profession you have to be passionate about. passionate to help people and be there for them. especially children, who are among the most vulnerable and are "designed" (by nature :P ) to evoke protective feelings. and then you someone like Ayako who is so violent and unstable that she basically destroys your ambitions to care for her. or maybe rather: to put you into such a dilemma that you want to care for her but can't because she also scares you too much. with the added humiliation of being tormented by a child.
midwinter : (01 August 2018 - 09:40 AM) https://ec.toranoana...m/040030655013/ :wub:
Eisenalex : (01 August 2018 - 10:37 AM) Oooh, nice! Too bad it doesn't have any furigana. I might've ordered it otherwise.
midwinter : (01 August 2018 - 11:58 AM) yeah, I usually just get them for the art and occasionally attempt to translate them for practice, but furigana would make things easier!
Eisenalex : (01 August 2018 - 02:49 PM) I wouldn't even try without furigana. kanji are the bane of my existence when studying japanese.
Yashuu : (02 August 2018 - 03:24 PM) ooooh happy belated birthday FF4!  :icon_watashi:
Yashuu : (02 August 2018 - 03:27 PM) Himiko and Watashi are my favourite ghosts from 4, creepy legends!  :icon_femalehead:
Yashuu : (02 August 2018 - 03:28 PM) FF4's ghost visual design is soooo good though, like the most consistently high quality in the series imo
Yashuu : (02 August 2018 - 03:28 PM) even the basic designs look great thanks to the fantastic art direction
Yashuu : (02 August 2018 - 03:29 PM) i can't believe its 10 years old  :icon_blinded:
midwinter : (02 August 2018 - 05:08 PM) man, i tend to forget about Himiko (she gets lumped into the general "patients" category in my head), but you're right, she is awesome
Yashuu : (03 August 2018 - 02:27 PM) it helps that she has a really cool fight pattern as well, that reaaally delayed fatal frame chance where she like weaves all over the place before attacking is tense
GregZerO : (04 August 2018 - 11:19 AM) awww happy birthday to FF4 and we are getting ooolder.I thought that I would never play it cause back then I wasn't allowed to have a Wii or buy stuff from the internet cause i was too young to make choices like that.I pretty much love everything about FF4,except that annoying puzzle

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#1 OFFLINE   Rheo

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 04:13 PM

I was just talking to my friend about this earlier and he found that in FF4 he didn't like the most, story-wise, because the only connection there is Dr. Asou himself, related to one of the girls, which I think is Misaki if I'm not mistaken, if my memory serves me right. He likes connecting characters like how FF3 Rei's fiance Yuu is a friend of Mafuyu from FF1. Although I told him that FF4 is the beginning for Dr. Asou, as he agreed, he still would like it very much if everyone is connected to each other. 

 

What do you think about Dr. Asou's influence in FF4? Like we all get to learn that his journey to the island has affected the development of his work? Or something else... But still, Misaki Asou was also there too. @_@

 

edit: Lol i forgot to ask if anybody else there likes the games to be connected to each other or is fine with FF4 being... a little "out of place" from the series


Edited by Rheo, 25 December 2017 - 04:14 PM.

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One, Three, and Four, my favorite characters as of now.
Two? No. Five? No!
and Zero? NO!


#2 OFFLINE   Hex

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 06:04 PM

Moved to the FF4 section.   :)

 

I liked how Asou was handled a lot.  Just when we thought we'd never see his face or read his notes, they gave us the Asou Museum.  I thought it was pretty cool how visiting the island helped him develop the camera further, and hearing him stretch his legs in the folklore department through attending the kagura was fun.  It's probably my favourite inclusion of him so far.

 

I don't see 4 as being "out of place" per se, just independent.  I actually like that it tells its own story, though having ties to previous games is great, too.  As long as it still feels unquestionably part of the same universe, I don't mind either way.


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#3 OFFLINE   AnimalLover47999

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 07:34 PM

I like how Fatal Frame 4 is more independent.  It allows the storyline of the previous 3 games to be concluded as and permanently final like they always will be.

 

Aside from non canon filler story/character elements in 5 there isn't really anything less independent about it than 4 other than Asou and the Kurosawa name.



#4 OFFLINE   Hex

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 04:23 PM

To clarify, nothing in 5 is non-canon.  It's just AL's opinion there is.



#5 OFFLINE   AnimalLover47999

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 04:27 AM

Not going to make an ongoing debate about this because there's no point and it's not going to change anyone's minds on either side of the spectrum but I will say this.

 

The idea that canon is something re-writable is entirely fan taught and constructed rather than a law or actual definition that you can use to coin it as such.  You can't use websites or online definitions made by people who assumed it did work like that.  Those aren't valid sources and the original definition of the word canon was to single out what did or didn't really happen in history.

 

Just because they made a series doesn't mean they can't be incorrect on in universe details given the circumstances.  When something is possible to happen to the series characters and universe like 3 then that storyline is canon and happens to them.

 

Miu's storyline is impossible to be canon within the same universe as the previous games so it by default is non canon.  It doesn't matter whether the creators feel otherwise (even though they more than likely regret it given how their interviews heavily give off the impression they didn't think it was a good idea and only did it because they were mislead into thinking fans wanted it) because the originals and the information provided in them still exist to prove it otherwise.  Ayane's mode is likewise non canon given the impossibility of the two series to exist in the same universe.

 

It's no different than something being canon in broad strokes like the Buffy live action movie.  The series references its overall event, but the characterization of the characters isn't applicable to the show's universe.

 

Make what you will of it, but it is not a simple case of right and wrong by virtue of something being released.  Things are made that contradict the truth all the time and there is no way they can coexist even if they try to tie in with the previous storyline. 

 

Death of the Author and the simple fact that the understanding of canon is self taught rather than something provable via actual fact confirms it's not a case of delusion on my part because it requires you to think for yourself and actually recognize when something is impossible.  In universe and out of universe are two different things and simply because something got released officially doesn't automatically make it canon.  Otherwise both versions of the Fatal Frame movie's storyline would be canon, or the impossible to coexist within the game's universe segments of the Zero 3 Comic Anthlogy would be canon.  Them approving its creation is the same as them writing it themselves because they have to supervise and accept or veto any ideas that are put into it.

 

This isn't the same thing as not liking your favorite character dying in the Walking Dead and pretending they didn't die because it's still possible to happen in universe.  If I was going someone didn't die in the show because I didn't want them to die then I'd be delusional.  But this isn't a case of that and asserting that it is is misunderstood.  This is a case of something out of universe being provably impossible to happen in universe and as a result is uncanon to the series timeline because of it.

 

Given how the creators pay attention to the community in Japan's response to their games, and how it was a negative reaction there as well it's highly likely they consider it's uncanon as well.  They very well could make a new game with Miku still being Rei's assistant and ignore 5's version all together.  That would mean 5's version was never canon to begin with and was just a what if scenario that never got elaborated on as such.


Edited by AnimalLover47999, 06 January 2018 - 04:44 AM.


#6 OFFLINE   Hex

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 02:06 PM

The idea that canon is something re-writable is entirely fan taught and constructed rather than a law or actual definition that you can use to coin it as such

 

I don't get your point.  Obviously canon in the context of fandom is "fan taught", as is "head canon", "retcon", etc.  In a creative medium, it's not a black and white chronicle of history, and shouldn't be held as one.

 

Miu's storyline is impossible to be canon within the same universe as the previous games so it by default is non canon.

 

It's not impossible.  It's nonsensical and at odds with past games thematically, but new lore was written to accommodate it, and our opinion that it shouldn't be doesn't mean that it is.  

 

It's no different than something being canon in broad strokes like the Buffy live action movie.  The series references its overall event, but the characterization of the characters isn't applicable to the show's universe.

 

Why can't Ayane's mission be canon, then?  5 references Ayane's past briefly, but it doesn't dive us into the whole world of DoA, so theoretically we don't have to apply it to Fatal Frame if we don't want to.  It just sounds like a lot of cherry picking to me.  

 

Make what you will of it, but it is not a simple case of right and wrong by virtue of something being released.

 

I didn't say it was.  I think 5 was written and developed under the same process as 1-4, released officially as such, but since it has something you don't agree with, you're stretching and bending the definition of canon for you to denounce it.

 

I don't buy death of the author at all, it feels like another way to cop out of seeing something for what it is, at least in this context. 

 

This is a case of something out of universe being provably impossible to happen in universe and as a result is uncanon to the series timeline because of it.

 

Can you prove it, then?

 


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#7 OFFLINE   AnimalLover47999

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 09:08 AM

A creative medium should still be held to the standards of reality.  Reality isn't able to be changed on a whim.  That's the definition of a reality.  Being held to the standards of reality and being unable to be changed on a whim isn't the same thing as having fantastical or whimsical elements in your storyline.  Whether fictional or not it's both selfish and unrealistically entitled of an author to think they can have all the power when they're only Human like us.  No person is ever completely infallible and that applies to fiction as well because no one can handle being infallible. 

 

Considering the subplot was written to appease what they thought fans wanted and many fans have made it clear it's not what they wanted, not to mention retcon being a cop out answer that doesn't hold any realistic merit as it imbues saying something was one way all along even when everything prior proves otherwise, it is highly unlikely that they are proud of what they did and more than likely will either officially make it known as being uncanon, or will consider it uncanon themselves. 

 

It isn't something any fan has to accept as being the truth because it's incapable of being the truth and makes it impossible to enjoy the previous entries.  It's not only selfish but also uncalled for to insist it as being such simply because executive meddling caused a creator written fanfiction.  Even if they did still consider it as such for whatever reason be it stubbornness or what have you it inevitably wouldn't be due to its impossibility to exist in the continuity of 1 and 3.

 

It's completely impossible.  There was obviously never an incestuous angle to their relationship because of how Miku was written as being attached to her brother for being the only person who could sympathize with her ability to see spirits, and being the only family she had left after their mother's suicide.  Incest is something that is repelled by people from a biological and sociological standpoint and isn't something that can spontaneously develop from pain trauma, or sadness.  Incest only comes about between people who have something going on inside their head that turns that off and gets their feelings mixed up which is something Miku's never had an issue with.  Saying something new was made automatically changes character history and personality because of an incorrect portrayal isn't good enough of an answer to canonize it as part of the storyline. 

 

There's also the fact that despite wanting to please whatever fans they thought wanted this, they still felt the need to portray the relationship as being a selfish and evil one that causes nothing but pain and suffering to everyone around them which is the same thing they did with the Haibara's in Fatal Frame 4.  It feels like they didn't want to do this and never have supported actual incest (something only being incest if it gets physically romantic like lip kissing or other stuff) and made sure to show their disdain for it by making it an unpleasant and miserable experience for everyone supposedly involved.  Even the one responsible for everything going to crap's reason being that of implied incest is shown to be a terribly selfish and evil Human Being who would rather murder everyone than let his incestuous obsession with his dead sister get out.  They go out of their way to portray these characters with this angle to them in a negative light.

 

The Fatal Frame series and Dead of Alive series are too radically different in tone and narrative for them to exist in the same universe.  The only way Ayane's mode could be canon is if they explain it as some sort of dimensional portal pulling her into the world which still would feel fan ficcy.  There isn't any explanation for anything in it and the only thing it has going for it is the Tsumugi storyline.  Without the proper context its applicability in the series lore is small.

 

I don't agree with many things in fiction.  But none of those things are impossible to happen within the series' universes' storyline so they are automatically canon as a result.  Mio's character not getting the development I would have liked to see in 3 is canon because it's just as realistic for her to be unable to get through her pain given the context as it would be for her to be able to. 

 

A certain character in The Walking Dead getting sporadically killed after a season long search for them including loads of character development makes me feel frustrated and hurt but there's nothing impossible about that scenario so it is canon as a result.  Another character being built up as the main character's love interest and going through lots of well done character arcs with him getting killed off and then next episode him suddenly getting together with someone else who was only shown being a friend before hand is incredibly frustrating, but the show has a couple months time skip which makes that scenario possible and makes it canon as a result.  The point is it's not the same thing because if it was I'd be unable to accept those storylines as being canon due to how frustrating they are to go through and how they play with your emotions for the sake of it. 

 

However, I am able to which shows this isn't a case of changing the definition of something to suit my own interests.  This is a completely respectable and valid standpoint and world view to have.  Not agreeing with it doesn't make it incorrect when it has sound logic behind it.  The same applies with rejecting Death of the Author because of not sharing the same worldview as those who believe in it.  Objectively, no matter what, that subplot and any fanfic characters in it will never be canon.


Edited by AnimalLover47999, 21 January 2018 - 09:26 AM.


#8 OFFLINE   Hex

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 05:53 PM

AL, for the umpteenth time, you've wandered off into la la land.

 

A creative medium should still be held to the standards of reality.

 

By "reality", you obviously mean "good writing", which is subjective and might as well be you saying "if it's not what I think is realistic, it's just "creator fan fiction"", which leads me to: 

 

Whether fictional or not it's both selfish and unrealistically entitled of an author to think they can have all the power when they're only Human like us.

 

The irony here.  They do have the creative power to do with it what they want because it's their work.  It's entitled to hold the validity of it to your standards.  As consumers we're entitled to an opinion, our interpretations, and to either take it or leave it.  Anything more, like staking a claim on a piece of art's status, is selfish in my opinion.

 

No person is ever completely infallible and that applies to fiction as well because no one can handle being infallible.

 

So, if you're saying fictional canon is defined by accuracy and can be rejected if a creator makes a mistake, why can't we declare 3 as non-canon?  Miku seeing ghosts again after saying she didn't after Himuro is clearly incorrect, but I suppose you'd make allowances for that because you approve of the rest of her story?

 

Considering the subplot was written to appease what they thought fans wanted

 

I'm not sure where they said that, but if I remember right, Nintendo requested for Miku to return, the Ghost Marriage plot was being written independent to her, and while writing her into that story, Shibata decided her partner "could only" be Mafuyu.  You keep wording it like they were pressured into or trying to accomplish something with it, but they easily could have said no, or given her something else.  It's what it is: bad writing.  It's the direction they took, so why would they make it non-canon?  Fan pressure getting them to change it is just wishful thinking.

 

It isn't something any fan has to accept as being the truth because it's incapable of being the truth and makes it impossible to enjoy the previous entries

 

You're speaking for yourself here.  I enjoy the past games just fine.  Was I upset with what they did with Miku?  Of course.  But taking a step back, I realised it's not my job to try to justify or denounce it - if that's the sort of thing they're going to write and think I'll enjoy, that's on them.  If they want that as part of their canon, let 'em.  I'll take my coffee scenes and psychic lesbians and be on my way.  Will I criticise it whenever I encounter it?  Yeah, because it's ridiculous.  Do I take it as seriously as I did initially?  No, for the same reason.

 

Ultimately, it being canon has no affect on 1 or 3 for me as it doesn't change anything until 5.  Maybe you could try seeing it the same way?

 

It's completely impossible.  There was obviously never an incestuous angle to their relationship

 

They spun it to be incestuous in 5, which wasn't a plothole-inducing retcon, considering how consistently Mafuyu was one of the only things she cared about.  I hate it and don't think it's in character or was ever the case, but I don't think it's "proof" of it being "impossible".

 

It feels like they didn't want to do this and never have supported actual incest and made sure to show their disdain for it by making it an unpleasant and miserable experience for everyone supposedly involved.

 

Again, I think you're just seeing what you want to see.  A large part of the problem I had with Miku/Mafuyu in 5 is that it's romanticised to hell, and the game seems to want you to think it's all justified in the end, especially with Miu saying she finally "gets" it.  You're supposed to find Miku's love for her brother tragically sad, not repulsive or destructive.  I'd even argue they wanted you to sympathise with You's love for Sakuya in the end through giving us little glimpses of humanity in his final notes and tape.  The difference there is the tone; You is undeniably a bad guy, Sakuya is the creepy 4th floor patient, and the product of their relationship is a 12 year old psychopath.  The Hinasakis are portrayed a lot differently.

 

I don't agree with many things in fiction.

 

I've noticed.   :applegranny:

 

The point is it's not the same thing because if it was I'd be unable to accept those storylines as being canon due to how frustrating they are to go through and how they play with your emotions for the sake of it.

 

So, you admit that you're defining canon by what it does to you emotionally, not what it actually is?  Cool.

 

Objectively, no matter what, that subplot and any fanfic characters in it will never be canon.

 

It's been canon since 2014.  Please don't drag this out.


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#9 OFFLINE   GregZerO

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 01:20 AM

Just a random thought I had that has almost nothing to do with the conversation you guys have:

 

 Miku seeing ghosts again after saying she didn't after Himuro is clearly incorrect

 

I've heard this again in here and i was wondering,since the only ghosts that she can see in FF3 are in her dreams,does it count as "ignoring FF1 ending"?In other words,she might have lost her sixth-sense ,being able to see things in real world,but just like how blind people (who lost their sight in the middle of their life can still see images in their dreams) wouldn't be logical for Miku to be able to see ghosts?But I'm not talking about just loose memories and regular dreaming because, since Manor of Sleep kind of blends reality with no-reality,and in a way,it is a seperate reality it makes sense to me that she can see and interact with real ghosts in her dreams without having to use her lost sixth sense.

 

I don't really recall any momment when she did see a ghost awake in FF3,when she was on bed with all the engravers we were watching Rei's point of view.And even if there is somewhere a detail I'm missing Miku being able to see a ghost awake in FF3,since Manor of Sleep starts blending in reality in so many ways,it could justify the fact that she can see them without her lost sixth-sense.Its also interesting that the ghosts are never able to harm you outside of the dream,its like they are there but they are also not,they are real but they are also not real in a sense.

 

Yoshino is a normal person with no sixth-sense and she can see ghosts in the Manor of Sleep.Miku after the events of FF1 she is a "normal" person too and she can see ghosts in there,cause its not about having a sixth-sense or not,they are in diferrent reality,under a curse with specific symptons.


Edited by GregZerO, 28 January 2018 - 04:11 AM.

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#10 OFFLINE   Hex

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 11:29 AM

Yeah, that was also my head canon reason for why she could see them again.  I think she lost her sight in the real world but her "spirit" still leant towards death, so she could see them when she's in the Rift.  Or experiencing the Manor of Sleep is like Yae using the camera, it can awaken a sixth sense in you.






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