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Alternative to sacrifices


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8 replies to this topic

Poll: Alternative to sacrifices (10 member(s) have cast votes)

Is the Shinto ritual element becoming stale?

  1. Yes, it's too predictable (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. No, it's what makes a Fatal Frame (4 votes [40.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 40.00%

  3. It should remain an element, but there's room to experiment (6 votes [60.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 60.00%

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#1 OFFLINE   Hex

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 07:03 PM

A thought I've seen outside the forum occasionally is that the ritual and sacrifice formula of the series is getting repetitive, and might be to the series's detriment.  Do you think that's the case?  Are the continued use of shrine maidens and Hell Gates an element that's become tired?  If so, what alternatives would you like to see?  

 

Personally, I never felt like it was holding the games back.  I was always excited about what scenario and ceremony they'd come up with next.  Not having that would've been like having a Silent Hill without the town, but I suppose I am open to exploring new ideas.  What about you guys?



#2 OFFLINE   AnimalLover47999

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Posted 04 November 2017 - 05:44 AM

If they could do it in a different way then I want them to keep it.  2's shrine maiden and ritual was very different from 1's and made for a very interesting storyline.  3's is somewhere in the middle.  It's interesting in and of itself but I feel some of the details about it are a little weird such as the priestess being a voluntary position despite the imminent threat, as well as Reika's storyline being unnecessarily similar to Kirie's storyline make it a little more muddied than it should be.

 

Spirit Camera does a very good job at keeping similar aspects, but does things in a very interesting and new way with a fantastic antagonist that I don't have any problem with it being as short as it is.  It might even have benefited from being as short as it is due to them not trying to arbitrarily extend the gameplay and story experience in order to make the game longer.

 

5's storyline bored me to tears for how much of it felt like a shallow and overextended going through the motions of aspects from previous games' storylines.  And while I like Ouse I feel that her character didn't benefit from having a forced and un developed love angle thrown into her storyline.  The ritual and the history of suicides itself is a very interesting subject matter and I feel her storyline would have been better had yuukon not been tacked onto it with very flimsy plot justifications.  The love angle itself I'm not against on principle, but if they were going to have Asou of all people be her love interest they should have devoted far more time to their relationship than they did.  That said they did make the correct choice of not having her feelings for Asou be the reason the ritual failed.  It's a bit of uniqueness that I appreciate and feel 5 as a whole would have benefited by having more of.

 

If they are going to stick with Shrine Maidens and rituals then I'd like for them to come up with completely different reasons for the ritual to be taking place and for everything messing up.  Fatal Frame 4 did this very well by having virtually none of the elements of the past games in its storyline and it didn't suffer for it.  Having the ritual be about curing a disease caused by a portal to the other side rather than simply to seal the portal itself, and not having any sacrificing at all was a very interesting and well done experience.  I'd be more than happy with them keeping these series staples so long as they come up with fully unique details for why things ended up happening the way they did.  But there's no point in coming up with new details if they have needless resemblances to previous storylines like in 3, or are half hearted and not well thought out like in 5.

 

I don't want the series to move away from rituals or shrine maidens but in order for the series to not feel stagnated they need to move away from the maiden falls in love and becomes incompatible with the needs of the ritual.  If you're going to have the maiden fall in love with a character who isn't in the background like with Kirie's love then you need to actually show them falling in love in more than just a cutscene or two.  It needs to be the main focus of the storyline and can't be something sidelined till the very end otherwise it makes the whole thing feel rather pointless.

 

If it needs to be a love story spend a considerable amount of time on that aspect otherwise don't do it at all, do something other than the maiden falls in love as the reason the ritual failed (granted 5 technically didn't do this), have the reason the rituals take place be something other than simply sealing a gate.  It isn't the rituals or the maidens that need to change, it's the reasons for having the rituals and the maidens that need to be changed to keep things interesting.  As long as they do something new and unique like they did with 4 then I think that will be far better than getting rid of these aspects entirely.


Edited by AnimalLover47999, 04 November 2017 - 05:57 AM.

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#3 OFFLINE   MacabrelleEnvy

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 07:07 PM

I think there are ways to keep new storylines fresh and exciting while using the failed ritual template. But, I also feel like a game without the rituals could still be done in a way that keeps the same feeling of the series without changing it completely. For example, I really love that Spirit Camera's story still had a ritual and a sacrifice, but it involved her becoming a vessel rather than sealing a gate. It was similar but different enough to keep my attention (and i'm seriously upset that there wasn't more actual gameplay and story to go with it). I also like that in Shadow Priestess there isn't a sacrifice or hell gate, but it still felt like Fatal Frame even without them. I do prefer the games to have very little connection to each other though. I think many of us agree that certain parts of the third and fifth games were just too much.

#4 OFFLINE   AnimalLover47999

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 07:38 PM

I don't think any of the connections to 1 or 2 were a detriment to 3.  We got to learn more about Himuro Mansion and Miku became even more of a likable person than she already was (and is the last canon appearance of her in the timeline due to it being the only possible one to happen), and while I don't feel that Mio and All God's Village were given the representation they deserved, it still gave us Kei who is one of the most likable characters in the series and the two new twin girls are a nice addition (that Kusabi fight is still bull shoot though.)

 

I think the only actual problems with 3's story are some of the smaller details with the Kuze Family and the (for me at least) unnecessary distracting similarities between Reika and Kirie's storylines.  If you fixed those two things then the story would be pretty flawless imo.



#5 OFFLINE   MacabrelleEnvy

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 07:58 PM

I think I might just still be frustrated with the 5th game and feeling very "LEAVE MIKU ALONE" about the whole series lol. I honestly really liked the third game and thought the way the other games were linked in was pretty well done story-wise. Having a new character related to Mio was a great idea and having Yuu, Kei, and Mafuyu acquainted was great backstory. Miku working as a photographer and helping Rei with her freelance work was great. Even reusing locations from the first two games made sense because of the dream/nightmare aspect. But for Miku to have ended the first game having lost her "sight" and then to suddenly regain it was a bit wonky. I was also under the impression that the "good endings" weren't exactly cannon (since Mayu is gone in the third game) so having Miku appear again later in the series was really unexpected. Maybe if they redid the first game and changed some things about her character to fit the later games I wouldn't dislike it so much.

I prefer the subtle connections though, such as Yae in the first and second, or Dr Asou throughout the series as a visitor to haunted locations or lending/passing down his cameras. If they are going to make another game where previous main characters are directly involved again I might be upset if it isn't done in a way that really builds the character.

#6 OFFLINE   AnimalLover47999

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 08:26 PM

I think the whole reason she got her sight back was simply because she got pulled into the manor of sleep.  That aspect never bothered me personally.

 

They might not have decided upon which ending was the true ending when making 1 and 2.  With the first game I think it was made as a self contained storyline so that if a sequel was never approved they would still have a satisfying conclusion to the characters and storylines in that game.  I think the main reason they decided on the normal endings being the canon endings in 1 and 2 were in order to get across the games' message of living life and never giving up no matter how miserable you are feeling. 

 

If the happier endings to 1 and 2 were what really happened then they wouldn't have been able to get this message across nearly as well.  I think that's the main reason that the bad endings are the true ones in those games because the message works far better if it involves characters the player has already become attached to and has had previous experiences with getting to know.  I have heard that Shibata was going through his own bouts of depression around that time and struggled with these kinds of thoughts he could made the message as a deliberate attempt to reach out and help others going through what he was going through.


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#7 OFFLINE   Hex

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 08:59 PM

 But for Miku to have ended the first game having lost her "sight" and then to suddenly regain it was a bit wonky.

 

I always saw it as Miku having lost her sight in the real world, but in the Manor of Sleep she's being represented by her spirit rather than a physical body, which still leant towards death more than the average person.  So, it's dormant in the physical plane but can still kinda torment her in the rift.

 

I agree about Shadow Priestess trying something different but keeping the tone very Fatal Frame.  The live action movie too strayed from having a cursed location via failed ritual set up but nailed the atmosphere.  


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#8 OFFLINE   AnimalLover47999

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 09:04 PM

I agree about Shadow Priestess trying something different but keeping the tone very Fatal Frame.  The live action movie too strayed from having a cursed location via failed ritual set up but nailed the atmosphere.  

 

I never finished the novel but was it different as well?



#9 OFFLINE   Hex

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 10:07 PM

Kind...of.  It's really hard to explain, but midwinter did a great job on the wiki (covers the ins and outs of the plot).  Basically, there's still a sacrificial custom but it's been reinterpreted and changed over time.  The movie did away with that almost entirely, to the story's benefit.

 

God, reading all that again was a doozy.  Eiji Otsuka man.






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