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Did 5 made FF3 irrelevant/a waste of time now?

Fatal Frame Fatal Frame III Fatal Frame V Miku Hinasaki Opinion

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#1 OFFLINE   ナガクラ


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Posted 20 June 2015 - 08:54 PM

With the whole controversy with Miku I remember people saying FF3 never happened and this is what really happened after FF1. I believe the game ignores FF3 because there hasn't been any mention of it. The person who reported Miku missing was somebody we dont know (like Rei or Kei or maybe Mio to name a few). We've came to believe that Miku is over Mafuyu then FF5 came in and she hasn't gone over him at all. So is FF3 just a waste of time now?

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#2 OFFLINE   Homuranagi



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Posted 20 June 2015 - 10:55 PM

It doesn't ignore 3 itself. It uses 3 as an excuse for why Miu's plot (and her very existence) in 5 happened, Hisoka is a Kurosawa deliberately designed to resemble Rei, there's that unnamed photographer who is speculated to be Rei, Kei was originally supposed to be Miu's father... there's actually quite a few references in there, even if they are quite minor, so it clearly still "happened".


What it does ignore is all of Miku's character development in 3. Originally it was supposed to be a sort of bittersweet thing, but now her line about knowing why they survived has gone from "good for you" to downright sinister. The game was all about learning to live on despite your grief and losses and all of that, and she did - and then 5 decided to tear all of that down and invalidate the lot, because actually she never got over it (probably only living on so she could birth their incestuous offspring) and if anything was worse than ever. The ending was specifically meant to be happy and a good ending, but years down the road they decided to retcon it so that actually it was all about incest, and a reminder that no matter how much you go through you will never actually move on, because the only way to numb your pain is to die, making sure to hurt as many people around you as possible in the process for the sake of your own destructive relationships. And even that isn't always enough.


So, while it doesn't outright ignore 3 as a game, it definitely ignores its entire message and is horribly and honestly nonsensically written. The comment about why Mafuyu is Miu's father - because Shibata couldn't see Miku performing yuukon with anyone but him - says a lot about Miu's plotline as a whole. Even if for some reason she really, really did have to enter into yuukon with someone, rather than just being an NPC or something like a similar role to Hisoka's, why does this mean they HAD to turn it into incest with their own half-dead baby? Why could they not just run with Miku wanting to ease his suffering as his SISTER? Are we writing this so it makes sense and has an impact, or just for the shock value (which we lost long ago because of overuse of incestuous themes and uncomfortably close siblings)?


It's technically not the first time they've done this, either. At the end of the first game she basically gets given a new beginning, because she might be alone but her brother died for a ~noble cause~ and best of all she can no longer see the ghosts that were ruining her life. She had been freed from her ability and therefore the family curse and she could have been happy. Then 3 came around and oops, survivor's guilt, and she CAN see ghosts again! And then she goes through hell Take 2 and gets yet another fresh start with a good friend who she cares about... and then she chooses to throw it all away, AGAIN. They keep giving her closure and then just snatching it all away again to milk her popularity. She's forever being taken back to step 1. The difference is that it was believable in 3. Here it's just ridiculous, and even if they really did either pretend 3 never happened or hadn't made 3 then it would still probably feel weird.


There's no reason for Miku to be anywhere near this game. She was crowbarred in at the request of a producer rather than being a natural part of it (probably to try to get the older fans on board), so her entire reason for being there is forced and unnatural and that's when you end up with bad things like this that make no sense and ruin older storylines. She's not supposed to be there because she's supposed to have moved on, and I guess you can't do that and end up at a suicide/undead marriage location - so drag her back down so she fits! Whoever was writing it also totally dropped the ball and managed to turn her into a monster, too, which doesn't help. It's a good thing they cut the ending where Miu and Miku die together. I don't think I could've handled that. Miku destroying her entire life over an obsession that was meant to be over is bad enough, but Miu doing the EXACT SAME THING would have been going way too far. Hopefully this never happens, but knowing the Hinasakis...


For the time being, 3 still "matters", just about. As soon as Rei starts pining after Yuu again and decides that her life isn't worth living after all then the whole thing will have been totally pointless. The cycle has to end somewhere. It's dangerously close to becoming a series where the only thing that actually matters is how far you're willing to go to stay with the object of your creepy and OTT, possibly incestuous, obsession. Miku managed to get out, but then they decided she didn't get redemption after all, and not only that but she died for her obsession. Which, by the way, was incestuous. AGAIN. Who does it satisfy when happy endings mean nothing, because they're all apt to relapse to their old ways at any moment? When no one ever really changes, because their obsessions still totally define them and their lives? The only message the series has at this point is that you can never be happy unless you die with your favourite person (kind of 5's entire theme, actually!). It's both repetitive and frustrating. You can bet that whatever happened after 3, Mio never ever moved on from Mayu and is either dead or has lost her mind, because if Miku can't move on then there is NO chance that Mio does, which would be yet another part of 3 down the drain. Please just give us one character who can manage to live a relatively decent life without having to either commit suicide or marry a sibling and then retconning it later on so we're just back to the start.

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#3 OFFLINE   Hex


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Posted 21 June 2015 - 12:31 AM

The only message the series has at this point is that you can never be happy unless you die with your favourite person (kind of 5's entire theme, actually!).


This is the main thing that bugs me, aside from Miku.  It's like, we have Reika going against her teachings and the game's message by contributing to the problem through keeping her attachments, causing the whole disaster, but Rei is able to fix it by following the right example.  We're shown chasing ghosts/someone's memory can only do more damage, and that you need to forgive yourself, but 5's entire focus is the romanticized idea that dying with someone is the ultimate way of saying "I really like you" without ever being questioned.  In the end, how important is it that Yuuri can choose to live when Miku is never criticised for her actions?  What are they saying is the better option?


The two themes just so jarringly contradict each other, it's hard to believe they are connected.

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#4 OFFLINE   Homuranagi



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Posted 21 June 2015 - 07:42 AM

A lot of 5's basic premise is pretty much the retconned version of FF3 + Hinasaki family history repeating itself: Yuuri, like Miku, is a troubled 19-year-old with a dead family and a terrible ability to see the dead that leads her to isolate herself. She finds a friend in housemate Hisoka, who is pretty much Rei 2.0 - she both looks like Rei and takes on the mentor/friend/secretly tortured role, having the girl move in with her after a traumatic loss of her own. Ren is this game's Kei in the form of a guy who's mostly around to provide literature and look an awful lot like the dead lady's old boyfriend, including being the first to try to pacify her in a dream but ultimately fail (he also spends a lot of time asleep on the sofa). Miu, the 17-year-old who is incapable of opening up to anyone or forming relationships, loses her only family member when Miku decides to sacrifice herself for a noble cause because a dead person desperately needs her company to ease their suffering (except they don't). When she finally catches up to that person, despite having risked her life to do so, they don't want anything to do with her and she has to live with the consequences. I guess it's more like a quiet rewrite of 3 using the opposite ideas than an ignorance of it.


Where it diverges, though, is when Yuuri decides that the solution to her loneliness is not with her living friends but with committing suicide to be with the ghost of a hell-addled woman who she sympathises with because they are both lonely and can be together with their pain or whatever, leaving Hisoka to watch her die and bring back god knows what kind of trauma from the Akari incident - which is even worse since Yuuri knows this and she does it anyway. But what do your very alive, very in need of support friends matter when you can die dramatically for ~destiny~? Mafuyu does the same thing when he dies with Kirie. Miku continues the buck-passing, doing the same thing to Miu when she decides it's time to abandon her and stuff herself inside a box with Mafuyu to ease his suffering (somehow - the love triangle gets awkward when you throw in box mechanics that already make next to no sense). That she's going to die anyway is irrelevant. It's the way in which she does it, with so much disregard for something she should understand better than anyone. What about the consequences of this on Miu (which we get all too good of a look at)? Like she cares. Destiny awaits and all that. Does Mafuyu really care that Miku has to suffer his loss so he can be with Kirie? Does Mayu really care what happens to Mio when she dies to get her own wish? One person getting what they want inevitably rains horrible things down on the people left behind, so the cycle goes on. But every time it still gets treated like it's the "right" answer and the only real resolution.


Almost everyone in the game has attachment issues of some kind. It's almost the antithesis of 3. I mean, the game's main theme is that you go to this mountain to kill yourself because you don't want to live anymore for whatever reason. That's ALREADY a contradiction. What happened to carrying on despite the pain, versus desperately needing to be WITH them? The maidens watch you die and this is treated like the ultimate peace, even desirable. So what was the point of stressing in 3 that you should live on rather than just die? Did they have a change of heart afterwards and decide that they were wrong all along, that there's no such thing as moving on and only one way to true satisfaction? It's like none of them ever learn and nothing can trump their need to die to follow through with the obsessions or weird notions of fate. Do you really think Miu gets over Miku after 5? I'd be willing to bet that she just becomes more obsessive, like Miku, and heads off to try to kill herself to be with her parents in true Hinasaki style. It just goes on and on. It's no small miracle if Rei is still alive. The only one who really makes it out of the series unscathed (well, minus the whole trauma thing) is Ruka, because she is the only one who doesn't have one of these attachments. She gets closure on her father and her lost memories and it's over. She seems fine. So why can't the others move on without having to die first?


If Rei was in 5, do you think she would have made the same choice, or would she have gladly killed herself to be with Yuu? I think she probably would have gone with him or drowned herself afterwards in some kind of gesture that would inevitably be treated as "right" and romantic. Look at Haruka and Fuyuhi in the Magatsuhi scene - they look perfectly happy. Because they're dead, which is yet again what we're told is the ONLY way anyone can truly be happy. They fail in killing themselves, and their literal first thought is, "Okay, when do we try again?" because living is never even considered as an option, and the ONLY time they are happy is in that Magatsuhi (let's ignore the whole suicide possession thing for the time being). When Miku's walking towards it with Miu, finally getting to die, that's pretty much the happiest she looks, maybe even in the entire series. Why go on suffering when all of your problems can be solved by killing yourself and standing under a mystical sunset? It just doesn't feel right at this stage to be going back to this after the significance of Yuu's speech and the post-credits comments. Miku went through 3 only to decide that dying was better after all; the writer(s) decided that romanticised notions of suicide were much better than actually confronting your issues and living despite them rather than chucking yourself off the first cliff you come across. I guess that's nothing new, though. Right, Amakuras? Now the Promise ending fans know why I dislike it so much. It doesn't fit at all. This isn't a series where anyone ever moves on or is happy while they still draw breath. They're just not allowed.


Movie spoilers, for those who haven't seen it yet:



What we're being told is that, despite all of the things she experiences and however many times she's told to live, Miku just refuses to accept it. It makes no sense, it's totally unsatisfying, and ultimately just a big waste of time. Why have her survive 3? The only possible reason is Miu, but there's no indication that she would even have known of yomiko. If she wants to be with Mafuyu that badly, there is no reason for her to stay behind. She could have had what she wanted, but she chose not to. Her meeting with Mafuyu is supposedly just like Rei's, so let's assume that Mafuyu does tell her what Yuu says. She's not even interested in Rei at this point, or the world of the living in general. She hears all of this about how she should live on, that she still has a life to live and should keep Mafuyu alive in spirit. Not only does she ignore this when Rei tells her that following the dead means she can never come back, but she ignores the very object of her obsession telling her not to do it. That makes no sense whatsoever in a game with 3's message, where the ending is supposed to be good and serve as closure. Obviously that's because it's a bad retcon that was never meant to happen, but the point still stands. She only goes to do yuukon when she can tell she's close to dying, alright, but the obsession is still VERY clearly alive and never ebbed in the slightest. She goes far enough to keep the casing of a Camera Obscura around the house. Even when her now teenage daughter rescues her she doesn't say a WORD except that she shouldn't have done it. She spends the entire time saying Mafuyu's name, talking about him, dreaming about him, and even in what she knows are her last moments she focuses entirely on him and how happy they were together instead of the daughter whose life she ruined and is about to abandon for good. 100% of her attention is on him.


It's worse than it was in FF3. Back then she at least carried the illusion that she was managing, and she could care for both herself and Rei on top of doing mountains of research to help out, whereas in 5 she's lost any and all interest in anything - including her daughter! - except herself and dying. Is that what 3 was meant to teach us, then? Struggle all you like, but you can't escape either way. The only thing on her mind after 6 years is still death and her brother. Her entire plotline is set up to directly go against the entire point behind 3. Rei is the only one who actually really grows beyond the obsession and decides to confront her new life rather than live in the past until she can die, and she seems to be the worst one off for it. Remember when Miku's running towards Mafuyu? Rei's comment: "It might be easier to go to the other side, but don't give up. ... You're a stronger person than I am." If Miku is the strong one of the bunch then the rest are screwed. Aside from off the charts levels of OOCness, are we now saying that Rei made the wrong choice, because no matter how strong you are you'll succumb in the end and be better off because of it? That she could have been happy if only she had just died and taken the "easy" way out? It seems a lot like it. This is why I lean towards the Embrace ending being "canon" if it ever gets a sequel, even though I'd much rather it was Bride of Yomi. The only time these people are happy is when they're dead, because the real message that has always stuck with this series is that death is always the answer sooner or later. Except even death won't give you peace, because your living family members will keep messing with you from beyond the grave since they can't live without you and you're not allowed to make your own life choices.

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#5 OFFLINE   Abicion


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Posted 08 August 2015 - 09:32 PM

Rei wakes up inside her home, and realizing what has happened, breaks into tears. It is then revealed that Miku was also spared from the curse, and the two now understand that they must continue to live on no matter what.


Well it certainly invalidated the entire message of the game.

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OutRun 2019 soundtrack, help me.

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