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Who's to blame for the Repentance?

Fatal Frame II Ryokan Kurosawa Yae Kurosawa Sae Kurosawa Itsuki Tachibana Ryozo Munakata Poll Opinion

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24 replies to this topic

Poll: Who's to blame for the Repentance? (34 member(s) have cast votes)

Who's to blame for the Repentance?

  1. Ryokan Kurosawa (8 votes [23.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.53%

  2. Sae Kurosawa (2 votes [5.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.88%

  3. Voted Yae Kurosawa (10 votes [29.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.41%

  4. Itsuki Tachibana (13 votes [38.24%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.24%

  5. Ryozo Munakata (1 votes [2.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.94%

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#1 OFFLINE   midwinter

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 06:43 PM

Ever a popular topic in the FF3 forum, so why not spread the controversy around a little? Pick the person you think was most responsible and tell us why.

 

Ryokan, for trying to perform the ritual with only one twin shrine maiden, which was the obvious final straw? Yae, for running away? Sae, for going along with the escape plan past the point of no return and then letting herself be recaptured? Itsuki, for orchestrating the escape plan? Or Ryozo, for playing getaway driver?

 

As ever, we will have no wishy-washy mumbling about how everyone was a little bit responsible and it was a chain of events - there can only be one.

 

 



#2 OFFLINE   Hex

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 12:19 AM

I don't know if Yae would have been so anxious to run had Itsuki not encouraged her or came up with a plan, which in itself seems a bit backward.  He performed the ritual and decided to help them out to prevent people dying again... by causing a huge massacre?  Had he accepted things and let the Kurosawa twins try to make up for it, things most likely would have gone smoothly, but he didn't do that.  In not performing the ceremony, everyone is doomed, including his family and sister.  



#3 OFFLINE   AnimalLover47999

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 04:51 PM

I think the two most at fault would be either Itsuki or Ryokan but since I can't pin it on more than one person I'd have to say Itsuki.  As much as I do sympathize with him and realize that it wasn't fair at all for him to go through what he did and to have it fail on top of that he really was foolish to do what he did.  I can understand how his own pain and sadness would drive him to want to spare others that same pain but in doing so he failed to see that he was dooming the rest of the village.  He talks about wanting to find another way to save the village which I guess implies he tried talking to the villagers who knew about the ceremony to try other things and they didn't even attempt to but in the end what he did was both right and wrong at the same time.  Right because he was saving the life of someone but wrong because he was indirectly dooming his entire village including his family to eternal suffering until the current day events of 2 happen.  Ryokan may have been foolish for trying the ritual with just one shrine maiden but he wouldn't have had to do that had Itsuki not helped Yae and Sae escape.  And even if Yae had a huge desire to escape before hand she wouldn't have been able to do it without Itsuki's help.  Therefore despite multiple people doing things that would make it eventually happen it all points back to Itsuki because they wouldn't have done what they did had he not started the whole thing.

 

Also LOL Ryozo.  How could he be to blame at all?  He didn't know there was a ritual going on.  All he knew was that Yae and (he thought) Sae wanted to escape the village.  He didn't know why they wanted to thus his involvement doesn't contribute to the disaster.  And like the others he wouldn't have even been there had Itsuki not sent him a letter which spurred Makabe to visit the village.


Edited by pkstarstorm1up, 31 January 2014 - 04:53 PM.


#4 OFFLINE   Kouta Koikawa

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 09:06 PM

Ryokan only did what he had to do at that point. If we go from the assumption that there was no other way to avoid the massacre than killing twins, then it boils down to having 2 people dead instead of the whole village. Yae was the one who wanted to escape so she's mostly to blame. Itsuki encouraged her but it's not clear how much causal relevance that had for what Yae did.


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#5 OFFLINE   FiliusMartis

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 03:01 AM

I think it's important to remember that Ryokan is a Remaining himself, that he did this for the good of his people and still believes in it. It's not like he's making them do something he wouldn't do, and that's what's interesting about this situation in comparison to the other games. Furthermore, while Sae would be physically dead in her own body, her spirit would have merged with Yae's, if the ritual succeeded. Therefore, nobody is truly lost, just reformed into one physical being containing two spirits. As previously mentioned, if Ryokan didn't go through with this, everyone was going to die, which is exactly what happened.

 

I'm generally torn between Yae and Itsuki. It's difficult to tell how much influence Itsuki had over Yae. He was a little bit older but not so much that it seems really influential. However, I think he could have scared her, told her how slow and horrible his ritual was, how aching the loss. Itsuki might have had Yae believing her ritual was doomed to failure, especially since the reason for his own ritual failing is given as his having loved Mutsuki too much. Furthermore, there's the fact that he outright lied to her about his own intent. I don't think Sae and Yae would have been willing to run away if they knew Itsuki planned to hang back to die, either by the Repentance or by suicide. For those reasons, more of the blame falls on him, but Yae has a fair bit of responsibility as well.



#6 OFFLINE   Nephthys13

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 08:35 PM

Ehh...  Ryozo  :thinking:

 

To be honest I have no idea which one to pick... they all have a certain fault. Yae for running away even while she knew the consequences. Ryokan for hanging Sae and didn't performing a proper ritual. Sae for slipping (that kinda has to do with the Repentance... I guess) on purpose. Itsuki for helping the two escape. Ryozo... okay can't think of anything he did wrong.

 

But if I really must pick one... it would be Itsuki - for obvious reasons (second pick would be Yae)



#7 OFFLINE   FiliusMartis

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 12:06 AM

Theoretically, wouldn't the Repentance have happened whether Sae slipped or not? I mean, I suppose it would likely have been different since there was no improper sacrifice to reject, but if she had gone along with Yae, there would have been no sacrifice at all and things were already looking bad. The only difference would have been that there would have just been the Kusabi killing everyone rather than her ghost also being present. Unless, of course, you're suggesting that had there been no sacrifice at all, things would have been fine, but I think all the omens leading up to that time undermine that theory significantly.

 

Aside from that, everything is Ryozo.



#8 OFFLINE   Nephthys13

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 02:49 PM

If I remember correctly the priests always said that the Repentance happened, because they made an incomplete ritual and the abyss was angered by that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

But if that's the case then it could have been that, if Sae hadn't slipped but rather escaped with Yae, the village could have had more time to prepare a different ritual or something like that. The abyss wouldn't be angry (that sounds wierd) and so on...

 

Just some speculations of mine ;)



#9 OFFLINE   FiliusMartis

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 11:09 PM

Oh, absolutely. The failed ritual certainly sped things along, but the Abyss was already angry. The village had had bad crops and strange omens for some time, and the entire point of having Sae go through with the ritual as they did was because there were no other twins. I certainly don't think that things were going to hold for another decade or so for some kids to be born and brought up as shrine maidens. Remember, they were already buying extra time by using a Kusabi ritual, so they were in a dire situation as it was. The question is whether or not rituals were actually required, and I think the game certainly suggests they were. If that's the case, Sae and Yae running away might have delayed things but certainly not stopped them.



#10 OFFLINE   niaamakura

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 01:13 PM

Yae, If Yae know that her sister tripped her leg and find her--and then back to the village and finally do the ritual together I think the repentance wont be happening D: And also when we just arrived on the lost village we found her keep saying sorry, I think all of the disaster was her fault, then again, it just my opinion ^p^



#11 OFFLINE   Meital

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 04:26 PM

I think the two most at fault would be either Itsuki or Ryokan but since I can't pin it on more than one person I'd have to say Itsuki.  As much as I do sympathize with him and realize that it wasn't fair at all for him to go through what he did and to have it fail on top of that he really was foolish to do what he did.  I can understand how his own pain and sadness would drive him to want to spare others that same pain but in doing so he failed to see that he was dooming the rest of the village.  He talks about wanting to find another way to save the village which I guess implies he tried talking to the villagers who knew about the ceremony to try other things and they didn't even attempt to but in the end what he did was both right and wrong at the same time.  Right because he was saving the life of someone but wrong because he was indirectly dooming his entire village including his family to eternal suffering until the current day events of 2 happen.  Ryokan may have been foolish for trying the ritual with just one shrine maiden but he wouldn't have had to do that had Itsuki not helped Yae and Sae escape.  And even if Yae had a huge desire to escape before hand she wouldn't have been able to do it without Itsuki's help.  Therefore despite multiple people doing things that would make it eventually happen it all points back to Itsuki because they wouldn't have done what they did had he not started the whole thing.

 

I fully agree with this. I think Itsuki was the one to blame. Ryokan was also foolish to commit ritual with only one shrine maiden, but I think he did the only thing there was left.



#12 OFFLINE   Eiko82

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:40 PM

I blame Yae for leaving. She knew what the ritual was, she knew what would happen if she didn't perform it. Yet she still decided to run away and doom everyone.


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#13 OFFLINE   BatCountry

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 04:09 PM

I blame Itsuki. I think Yae & Sae would not have left without Istuki's idea to make them escape from the village.

Even if Yae was afraid of the ritual and didn't want to kill Sae, I think she would never have had the courage to leave.

Besides, I'm sure Sae was in love with Itsuki (heartbreaker >.>), so even if she didn't want to leave the village, Yae convinced her.

So, what made Yae's will to escape? For me, Yae's trust in Itsuki convinced her to leave Minakami, because he was sure his plan would work.

 

He had a plan, but it fails. Bravo, white-haired man.

(I never liked him anyway) c:


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#14 OFFLINE   Sackboy123

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 09:29 PM

I blame the entire Village for having this ritual because no one should have to live with killing someone very close to you :(


Edited by Sackboy123, 12 October 2014 - 09:29 PM.

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#15 OFFLINE   CrimsonSun

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 12:15 AM

I blame the entire Village for having this ritual because no one should have to live with killing someone very close to you :(


Everything about the ritual was barbaric and awful but the fact remains that the forces they were attempting to appease were real and the consequences for failing to preform it were even worse.

It does bbegg the questions, however, how much research was put into finding another way? Into destroying this force? And most of all, of this force lived here with the power to consume a village but not enough power to spread beyond that... Why didn't everyone pack up and leave?

Now answering that last question as "you know, that is a good idea" may make most sense but it is a bit boring. :-P I speculated that maybe these places were discovered years ago and certain families were sent by the counties royalty to guard over them out of fear of what they were or could do and this sense of duty kept them in place.

As for who to blame, I went through the game blaming yae, bit after reading about your relies on itsuki's involvement, I gotta split it even. In the end, the power of choice makes yaes fault even despite itsukis encouragement and plan.

#16 OFFLINE   MacabrelleEnvy

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 12:23 PM

Everything about the ritual was barbaric and awful but the fact remains that the forces they were attempting to appease were real and the consequences for failing to preform it were even worse.

It does bbegg the questions, however, how much research was put into finding another way? Into destroying this force? And most of all, of this force lived here with the power to consume a village but not enough power to spread beyond that... Why didn't everyone pack up and leave?

Now answering that last question as "you know, that is a good idea" may make most sense but it is a bit boring. :-P I speculated that maybe these places were discovered years ago and certain families were sent by the counties royalty to guard over them out of fear of what they were or could do and this sense of duty kept them in place.

As for who to blame, I went through the game blaming yae, bit after reading about your relies on itsuki's involvement, I gotta split it even. In the end, the power of choice makes yaes fault even despite itsukis encouragement and plan.

I feel like the "why didn't they just leave" argument is a bit pointless. It's like asking why the people who live in Florida don't just leave so they don't have to worry about hurricanes and such? Well probably because they had no where else to go or no way to do it. These families had also been in that area for a very long time and it's hard to leave that tradition and culture, especially during the time when the village was still thriving. Besides, they weren't just fearful of a bad harvest or calamity, but genuinely worshipped these deities. I don't want to get into religion, but it has a very strong hold over those who faithfully believe in it and that's a hard bond to break even when they're fearful of the worst. This is why certain cultures persist, though their ways are unorthodox or harmful to others and themselves. Kamikaze pilots didn't want to fly their planes into Allied boats but they were loyal to their country. Suicide bombers really believe what they are doing is right. When a whole population is going along with something it's very hard to go against them.

And in good conscious I can't blame Yae because Itsuki did encourage her, but Yae suffered a sort of karmic "that's what you get" when she ended up at Himuro Mansion and met pretty much the same fate as Sae (they were both hanged)... Though it is her cowardice that technically caused the ritual to fail, which technically can be considered Ryokan's fault because he didn't raise her with the courage to "do her duty". I know nature will have played a part in it, but i'm a firm believer of nurture having the biggest influence over the growth of a person. I kind of have to as a psychologist. Otherwise I'd have to accept that some people are just evil and wicked and we can't help them. I'd have to believe that Hitler was the devil incarnate, and not that his rejection from art school and his following fascination with the military and power is what created such a monster.

Edited by MacabrelleEnvy, 16 October 2014 - 12:27 PM.


#17 OFFLINE   CrimsonSun

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 01:27 AM

I feel like the "why didn't they just leave" argument is a bit pointless. It's like asking why the people who live in Florida don't just leave so they don't have to worry about hurricanes and such? Well probably because they had no where else to go or no way to do it. These families had also been in that area for a very long time and it's hard to leave that tradition and culture, especially during the time when the village was still thriving.


It can be a pointless question unless you are feeling creative and want to invent a reason for it. ^^ Add some folklore of your own to the origins of their relationship to the deities etc, as I suggested with a royal decree.

Your idea that they had no where else to go is probably most accurate, however. :3


Besides, they weren't just fearful of a bad harvest or calamity, but genuinely worshipped these deities. I don't want to get into religion, but it has a very strong hold over those who faithfully believe in it and that's a hard bond to break even when they're fearful of the worst. This is why certain cultures persist, though their ways are unorthodox or harmful to others and themselves.


I actually didn't think of it on that angle, the they genuinely worshipped these deities. It's a very good point and one that shifts my perspective of the blame game a bit. Is also the sort of thing I was looking for with that comment (why didn't they leave).


Kamikaze pilots didn't want to fly their planes into Allied boats but they were loyal to their country. Suicide bombers really believe what they are doing is right. When a whole population is going along with something it's very hard to go against them.


Also true and makes me think that, after getting passed the horror of some terrorist's actions, the answer for how they can do what they do is really very simple human social mechanics. It's this kind of thought that leads me to have only a materialistic perspective on reality (think of how brain damage or drugs and medication can change somebody to such s high degree).

And in good conscious I can't blame Yae because Itsuki did encourage her, but Yae suffered a sort of karmic "that's what you get" when she ended up at Himuro Mansion and met pretty much the same fate as Sae (they were both hanged)... Though it is her cowardice that technically caused the ritual to fail, which technically can be considered Ryokan's fault because he didn't raise her with the courage to "do her duty". I know nature will have played a part in it, but i'm a firm believer of nurture having the biggest influence over the growth of a person. I kind of have to as a psychologist. Otherwise I'd have to accept that some people are just evil and wicked and we can't help them. I'd have to believe that Hitler was the devil incarnate, and not that his rejection from art school and his following fascination with the military and power is what created such a monster.


I don't think yae's fate lessens her fault in the disaster at all. Her fate was irrelevant to her decision to flee that day.

I also disagree with her father being at fault for not raising her properly for the simple fact that he never once seemed to question the necessity of the ritual, making it seem unlikely that he would have been lax in informing her off her duty.

I don't believe reality operates according to our concept of morality - of right and wrong - and agree that evil people do not exist in that context. I do believe that people are born in all sorts of ways, making it more easy for some to be led by circumstances in their lives to do horrible things. Where the boundaries lie between nature vs nurture, human morality and physical (think brain construct) inevitably are all questions portrayed in the film confessions which is why it interests me so highly.

I also want to know, how exactly do we as humans assign blame? Responsibility and so forth?

#18 OFFLINE   MacabrelleEnvy

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 02:03 AM

Good points CrimsonSun! As far as Ryokan I only meant that he had not found a way to inspire Yae to feel the same as he did about the ritual. I do believe he would have encouraged and pushed her in that direction, but may have done it in a way that scared ber or made her disagree with him.

As far as assigning blame, the basic instinct is to assign it to someone other than yourself. We always want to assume that it's not actually our fault and so pick whoever is either closest, or the most "reasonable explanation". Though some people have no problem taking blame, and still others take on more blame than is actually their fault those circumstances are usually the result of someone else convincing them that it's their fault or assigning the blame onto them so much that they have no will to dispute it. I forget what the principle is actually called but it also has something to do with self bias. If I do something wrong I'm just having a bad day or made a simple mistake, whereas if someone else does the same thing I believe it's because there is something inherently wrong with them. For example, if I'm rude at a store I'm just irritated because my car broke down..but if someone else is rude at the store they must be a nasty, bitter person.

Edit: It's called the fundamental attribution error. I remember now. These are the sorts of topics covered in social psychology classes.

Edited by MacabrelleEnvy, 17 October 2014 - 02:06 AM.


#19 OFFLINE   CrimsonSun

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 12:12 AM

Good points CrimsonSun! As far as Ryokan I only meant that he had not found a way to inspire Yae to feel the same as he did about the ritual. I do believe he would have encouraged and pushed her in that direction, but may have done it in a way that scared ber or made her disagree with him.


This could very well be true. I really don't have any information on how he raised her but had a strong impression of it being a youth/new generation thing. Opposing tradition and beginning to have a me way of looking at old customs. What seems true in any case is that these young people did not worship these old goods and maybe they should have.

As far as assigning blame, the basic instinct is to assign it to someone other than yourself. We always want to assume that it's not actually our fault and so pick whoever is either closest, or the most "reasonable explanation". Though some people have no problem taking blame, and still others take on more blame than is actually their fault those circumstances are usually the result of someone else convincing them that it's their fault or assigning the blame onto them so much that they have no will to dispute it. I forget what the principle is actually called but it also has something to do with self bias. If I do something wrong I'm just having a bad day or made a simple mistake, whereas if someone else does the same thing I believe it's because there is something inherently wrong with them. For example, if I'm rude at a store I'm just irritated because my car broke down..but if someone else is rude at the store they must be a nasty, bitter person.
Edit: It's called the fundamental attribution error. I remember now. These are the sorts of topics covered in social psychology classes.


Is this a superficial psychological technique? I more when I'm having a bad day i will think like this but the same time, most of my brain is screaming, 'you're being a whiney child, you know there could be a thousand different things leading to x'.

Is it that some people are more inclined to think this way and if so, is it really just the stress of their busy lives that causes a lack of empathy or consideration of an external viewpoint or set of circumstances?

I believe that it exists and that people go through it, but what about cases of assigning blame in a situation where they are outsiders, therefore irrelevant? They have no need to divert blame at all and instead can focus on the situation at hand... Like we are doing with fatal frame right now.

I think it is probably obvious that the primary blame is placed on those which we perceive to be the primary cause of an unwanted situation, but how does that work, exactly?

Do we protect guilty people too to try and make the 'villain' more understandable to us? I'm sure it happens and maybe its a coping strategy.

I suppose, at the end of it all, what i really want to understand is what goes in to our judgement of fault.

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 08:25 PM

Honestly, no one should be blamed. But if I really have to choose, then:

 

Ryokan - Nah, he did everything right, even going as far as sacrificing his daughter. He also had no choice but to kill only Sae, since Yae was gone for good. If he wouldn't have gone through with it, they would have died either way.

 

Sae - She had nothing to do with the ritual's failure. Other than the fact that it was her ritual that failed, of course. This coming from someone who hates Sae. 

 

Yae - She was the one who ran away (can't blame her though), so technically she, or rather, her absence caused the ritual to fail. 

 

Itsuki - He was the "mastermind" of the whole escape idea, so he is responsible, though it was Yae who accepted his offer. 

 

Ryozo - No.

 

All in all, it's both Itsuki and Yae's fault, but I'm going with Yae, since she was the "core" of the ritual, and she accepted Itsuki's offer. Also, she was kind of a betrayer, since she could've became a living deity and save the village, while Itsuki had reason to flee from the village. His twin bro died, after all. 







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Fatal Frame II, Ryokan Kurosawa, Yae Kurosawa, Sae Kurosawa, Itsuki Tachibana, Ryozo Munakata, Poll, Opinion

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