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Why did the Kiraigou fail?

Fatal Frame IV Question Rituals

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#1 OFFLINE   Cursed Lemon

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 02:41 PM

I don't feel like this was ever adequately explained, or was tucked away in some obscure note that I haven't read. 



#2 OFFLINE   deer

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 04:25 PM

I think that it's because Souya made the mask poorly because of Ruka's interruptions. At least that's what I understood.


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#3 OFFLINE   Yashuu

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 04:42 PM

It's a combination of stuff, but the lack of the Tsukimori song was by far the largest factor.


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#4 OFFLINE   Cursed Lemon

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 05:35 PM

I'm confused about exactly how the ritual is supposed to proceed, or what the different parts of it are supposed to do. 

 

My impression is that there are two distinct problems on Rougetsu island - that living people are suffering the stages of Getsuyuu syndrome (which is caused by/originated from god knows what), and that dead souls are not being passed into the other world. 

 

Souya's belief was that the Kiraigou would cure his living daughter, but the Kiraigou itself failed. How is the Tsukimori song meant to fit into the dance portion? 



#5 OFFLINE   Yashuu

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 04:54 PM

Getsuuyu is caused by the dead souls lingering. Iirc, the lunar melodies of the many lingering souls begin to drown out the inhabitant's lunar melodies, and so they essentially lose themselves.

 

I think the Tsukimori song was to be played during the ceremony by a Tsukimori maiden. 


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#6 OFFLINE   AnimalLover47999

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 02:06 AM

I think another possible cause might be because Ruka, Misaki, Madoka, Marie, and Tomoe didn't mediate in the tunnels for 100 days like the notes said they were supposed to.  The Tsukimori song not being played is the given answer but this sounds to me like it could have contributed too.



#7 OFFLINE   midwinter

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 03:07 PM

Yeah, word of god is that the Tsukimori Song was the missing piece, but I like to think it was a combination of lots of things that were done badly, mostly stemming from the decline of the Tsukimori traditions. The Utsuwa and Kanade were supposed to be carefully selected and go through a fairly rigorous preparation for the ceremony, but the Haibaras had to make the best of the people who were available to them - Sakuya, who had been an Utsuwa before, and the Kanade, who already had Getsuyuu Syndrome and so probably didn't have the strong lunar melodies they were meant to.

 

It's pretty typical of Souya that he blames it all on an imperfectly-created mask, though. All along his mistake was to obsess over the masks as if they were all that mattered, and forget that his own wife probably could have told him plenty if he'd ever bothered to ask her. :rolleyes:

 

It's really hard to tell where the Tsukimori Song was supposed to fit in, but when Ruka finds the music that You Haibara was attempting to reconstruct for the Kiraigou, that's a fragment of the Tsukimori Song, so like Yashuu said, it seems like it was probably supposed to be played by a Tsukimori maiden while the Kiraigou was going on. The spirit list says something about the Gesshou Shrine carrying the music to all the surrounding islands, which is pretty interesting. I wonder if it interfered with what the Kanade were playing...



#8 OFFLINE   Darcness

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 01:48 PM

I wrote out a huge article on this on the old forum xD someone said they were going to scournge up stuff to contribute to the wiki for it and I was going to edit it but then time and life took over and I kinda got RLY inactive. sry >_<

the Kiraigou was a ritual used by the islanders even in old or possibly ancient times to drive away (from waht the japanese version called) a sickness/ curse caused by the moon. the kiraigou was used by the islanders to apparently appease the moon and retune it.  The actual purpose was actually to cleanse all the souls who were trapped on the island who could not cross over- the souls would build on the island and slowly taint the people. The moon's light would feel peaceful to them as it was the radiating light to the after life- as their souls were 'closer' to death as I believe it weas mentioned once in one of the notes. the Moon was seen as like their diety for crossing over- That it was a face of some sort (they left that part ambiguous for reasons Idr).

The Tsukimori maidens would be chosen at a young age to be Kanade based on their lineage, spiritual 'tuning', and after 100 days and 100 nights of meditation and learning the song, they would perform it on the night of the eclipse. By doing so, the souls that could not cross over would channel through the Utsuwa and the lunar light into their afterlife. the thing being is Mr. Rapist (You Haibara) RLY fudged up the translation of the Tsukimori no Uta (instead of you know- ASKING a Maiden). He began using his RLY bad arrangement of the song on his father's patients (the terribly transcribed piece of crap we hear over the intercom that sounds distorted to the girls) (my theory on that was that it sounds distorted because it is an incorrect variant of a soul tuning song- of course it's going to be doing adverse affects)

time came around and Souya was then instructed to make the mask- great- all is good and jolly except his obsession and pride put into the mask was always so vein that his over confidence messed up everything and (with Ruka's help for interrupting so much) made the mask terribly. The Kanade also didn't get any help here as they wore masks that were 'enchanted' to do everything in 1 night instead of the full prep work.

 

My interpretation of the final events of Sakuya was that she danced the way she was because of the song (due to her soul pretty much being a blank piece of paper and sounds/souls influenced her actions). Essentially the souls of the island (everyone dead before the ritual) started coming together into Sakuya for the channeling but because she wasn't tuning and the mask sucked, they kinda hit, like an unstoppable force hits an unmovable object. What happens to this scenario? it will bounce off and keep hitting it over and over again. SO Sakuya like absorbed them into herself and once she sucked up too many like a vacuum- it became too much to handle and suddenly, LE BOOM- Blooms but survives. Sakuya as an individual died (more so than she already was... which there wasn't much left by this point anyway). But she has all these souls inside her, so how come, you ask? Well think about it for a sec :3 what happens when a bunch of REALLY angry dead things are put together inside of 1 body? Yup- I don't think I need to explain that lol. So Sakuya gets erased and becomes... a literal meaning of "utuswa'- a vessel and in a weakened state, goes dormant.

 

2 years later, a natural eclipse happens instead of the supernaturally caused 1 that occurs every 10 years on sept 17th. Every soul ( possibly 100s by this point because as I see it, she was an active becon to everything dead)  awakens the comatose S.S. Sakuya Boat and it wakes up while Shie was on shift (who by this point I believe was the only still living Nurse since Fuyu was killed by Ayako and Tsubaki got murderfied by the dead things 2 years before) so there was no warning of her escape and eventual massacre of the island.

 

So to sum it all up- bad transcribbing of the song, botched kanade and a really crappy mask.


Edited by Darcness, 14 February 2014 - 08:29 PM.


#9 OFFLINE   Eiko82

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 06:52 AM

Darcness - Thank you for the indepth explanation. It helped me understand what happened a bit better.


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#10 OFFLINE   outgointrovert

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 04:15 PM

I know this will contradict years of our understanding of what happened during Fatal Frame 4 but...the Kiraigou was actually successful. During both times (the one before Sakuya's, and Sakuya's).

 

Gist:
Souya's mask wasn't a failure since it resulted in the completion of the true Mask of the Lunar Eclipse: Sakuya's Bloomed face. Kiraigou was meant to bring forth the Day Without Suffering through making all of the islanders Bloom. Rougetsu's ancient folklore [seen in the game notes/documents towards the final chapter of the game] believes that in Blooming, there is no more suffering because the Bloomed have become free of memories (including painful/bad ones) as "empty shells." Its ultimate objective was to make the Vessel, Sakuya, powerful enough to make the whole world Bloom through another "Kiraigou" on the next lunar eclipse.

 

Ruka was able to revise the outcome of this "second part" of the Kiraigou through two things: 1) playing the Tsukimori song which calmed down all the aggravated souls inside Bloomed Sakuya, preparing them for their homecoming to the Afterlife and 2) with Choushiro's help, sealing Bloomed Sakuya with Souya's mask [according to a game file, it's the one thing that can seal a Bloomed Vessel], which also caused all the dead's souls to return to the Afterlife through their gateway, the vessel Sakuya.

So yeah, Haibara and co. misunderstood the ancient texts: they thought that the goal of Kiraigou "to end Suffering" means preventing Budding and Blooming when in fact, it actually promotes them even more. And while this new idea of Kiraigou puts the Tsukimori maidens' beliefs (i.e. Blooming is bad so it must be stopped) in conflict with the Rougetsu's mainstream ancient folklore (i.e. Blooming should be our destiny), remember that the Tsukimori maidens have always been isolated from the rest of the islanders. It makes sense that they would have had a different way of looking at things.

Source: Watching GirlGamerGaB's fully translated playthrough of Fatal Frame 4 (most particularly this video: https://www.youtube....h?v=by9pugDGnlk )

Specific Parts of the above video (tried chopping/linking to specific parts, but the links kept getting messed up. so posting the exact time sections here instead):

11:00 - 12:15 (Souya's notes 5)
14:10 - 16:20 (The Coming of the Day Without Suffering)
23:40 - 25:40 (Souetsu's chronicle)
31:35 - 33:07 (Souya's notes 6)
35:15 - 36:15 (Legend of the Tsukimori Song)

Note that at no point does GaB use the English patch by Tempest's team (she does use some of the terms coined in Zero wiki). She did all of the translations in her videos all by herself, and I believe she IS a legitimate source since she has had extensive studies in Japanese (including classical Japanese). On top of that, she has also been living AND working in Japan for quite some time now and thus, she really knows her Japanese (as well as Japanese culture references) well.


Disclaimer: I'm just a Fatal Frame fan and I am in no way officially affiliated with GirlGamerGaB :)) . I'm just posting her vid here for reference. Although I really, really recommend watching her entire Let's Play of Fatal Frame 4, since it does a better job of translating the game. (Still, kudos to Tempest and the rest of the FF4 English patch team. :D Massive respect for all of you for bringing FF4 to the West.)


Edited by outgointrovert, 14 March 2015 - 09:46 PM.

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#11 OFFLINE   Homuranagi

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 12:29 AM

BRACE YOURSELVES
 
I'm inclined to disagree. There are a few main reasons why...
 
First of all, the idea that the Kiraigou was actually meant to cause the DwoS, because there's no suffering involved, or something along those lines. Well, if you look at the game, pretty much everybody seems absolutely terrified of the idea of it. I mean, Blooming does turn you into essentially an undead monster, after all. Even in Souetsu's time there were taboos about this, and rules to safeguard against and prevent it (such as cutting off the faces of the dead). They all repeatedly refer to it as a catastrophe, and they really don't have anything to gain from it occurring. Being an empty vessel means to die yet still be sort of artificially alive, though not yourself, and enough Getsuyuu patients feared this enough to commit suicide before they forgot themselves entirely - which is what Blooming does. "Blooming was the islanders' greatest fear." As soon as the DwoS happened, because of Souetsu's mask, they freaked out badly enough to burn all of his masks AND all documents relating to the ritual in any way. They weren't exactly going looking for it, so why create a ritual that would cause it?
 
Souya mentions that they were successfully able to stop the Utsuwa's rampage after the first DwoS by performing the Kiraigou again, by bringing her soul back to her body, and that something was missing from the ritual (suspected to be a calming element for the souls). For what it's worth the guidebook does state that Souetsu's Kiraigou failed, and Ruka playing the Tsukimori Song "completes" the third Kiraigou; combining this with all the mentions of the Kiraigou lacking something and needing something to soothe the souls, it does sound like this was the missing piece which would have caused undesirable results if it were lacking.
 
"However, the only way to seal the Bloomed Sakuya was to put the same Mask of the Lunar Eclipse on her and perform the Kiraigou, to return the souls to the moon...
 
Including the thing the second Kiraigou was lacking...
 
The thing that was missing... It was the sound of the soul, the Tsukimori Song."
 
There's that mention that the only ones who will survive the DwoS once it comes are the ones who go down into the tunnels and basically hope she passes by them; that if anyone shows symptoms of Budding or even a hint of Blooming that their face has to be cut off. Why go to such extreme measures if the DwoS is something to be desired? If it isn't, the question returns to: Why purposely cause it? Every time it's mentioned they put a clearly negative spin on it.
 
So. If you have a deathly fear of something, why do you continue to do it, despite knowing that it's linked to causing Getsuyuu? To essentially do what Ruka does, ie calm the souls of the dead and stop them from screwing everything up - not to kill everybody.
 
Something to note is that the MotLE itself doesn't seem to be what causes the disaster to happen. We don't have info on Souetsu's time, so it's much harder to judge what went wrong there (possibly an incomplete mask), but we have actual concrete evidence in the form of 4's ending that Souya's did work. The difference here is that the Tsukimori Song is played, which it was not at the original Kiraigou. So why, when the Kiraigou is done fully using all elements, would it do its job and send the souls if it was intended to cause a disaster? Why is the Kiraigou itself the only thing that can stop the "failed" Kiraigou? Surely the only answer is that, when it's done the right way, it actually does have the intended effect.
 
So! What was the actual problem with the Kiraigou? The ritual itself involves making the Utsuwa an empty vessel, and in order to do that her own soul leaves her body. Delving into theory territory here, but what about 4 doesn't. The masks were made using the removed faces of the dead who had not yet Budded or Bloomed; by putting these masks on the faces of dead people who had Bloomed they believed that they would stop them Blooming because they technically had no face. Sakuya's soul left her, and she became an empty vessel, but then - perhaps because the souls hadn't been calmed by the song and were too "rowdy" or what have you - the mask broke. Once she took the mask off again she was no longer "dead" and now susceptible to Blooming. However, her own soul couldn't come back, so she was left as this empty vessel. Souya's supposition is that performing the Kiraigou again will allow her soul to return, therefore clearing up the issue. Obviously, though, her soul is meant to return, so this would be considered a failure.
 
Now! The Haibaras were originally the ones who were in charge of the Kiraigou, and yet Shigeto has this to say for himself:
 
"The Mask of the Lunar Eclipse created a Blooming maiden, bringing about the Day Without Suffering which almost wiped the island out, becoming something feared and taboo. But a Kiraigou using the true Mask of the Lunar Eclipse should set the Utsuwa... should set my gravely ill daughter on the path to recovery."
 
So even the guy presiding over the thing was convinced that Souetsu's Kiraigou had had an undesired result, that he believed could be fixed. He then goes on to talk about how he thinks it can cure her, because, unlike the other masks that simply make people lose their selves, the MotLE can basically cleanse them and return their sense of self (the thing that Getsuyuu and Blooming take away).
 
In this case, surely the only person who could possibly have a motive to try to make everyone Bloom is Souetsu. The Yomotsukis had been making kagura masks long before this guy came along (seven whole generations, and they were revered for it), and yet everything was going just fine - no mass extinctions involved - until him. It was only when he began to experiment with strange masks that it failed for the first time. Not only that, but in his records:
 
"Putting the Mask of the Lunar Eclipse on her, performing the Kiraigou and returning the souls to the moon will stop the resonance. However, gazing upon the face of she who has become the Mask of the Lunar Eclipse is forbidden, and only one who also wears the Mask of the Lunar Eclipse is permitted to look upon her. Those who don the Mask of the Lunar Eclipse may Bloom."
 
Not only is does it say that the disaster may be stopped, it also talks about possible side effects. Why bother concerning yourself forbidding people from gazing upon the mask if you want them to Bloom? Why stop the initial disaster in the first place?
 
Similarly, why would both Shigeto and Souya agree to try to bring the mask back and perfect it if they had even a suspicion that it wasn't meant to do anything good at all? They saw something in the mask that they could use, and there was a reason for that. You Haibara definitely seems convinced that the ritual has failed - as does everybody, actually. These people are descended from the original ritual masters, and they all arrive at the same interpretation, which Ruka later validates.
 
So... if, using the exact same mask and Utsuwa, Ruka is able to complete the ritual and send the souls away using only the song, which was the thing missing from their Kiraigou. However, assuming they DID have the song back in Souetsu's time, it would sound like (combined with Souya's commentary on surpassing him etc.) it was his mask that screwed things up, RATHER than it being an intended result of the Kiraigou all along.
 
Souetsu was trying to reach the afterlife. Souya does too, but "falls just short". When Ruka does the Kiraigou for the second time, though, it has a very obviously different result - it opens the gateway to the afterlife, which is that big hole in the water. So if both Souetsu and Souya were trying to get to the afterlife, but couldn't (and their Kiraigous ended in DwoSes) and yet Ruka DIDN'T fail, can we not at least suggest that THIS is what was meant by that? That was Souetsu really wanted was to open the way to the afterlife - which, note, requires a successfully completed ritual? Surely, if nothing was done to prevent its spread (ie the Kiraigou) then Blooming would eventually take over anyway, without any push in the back?
 
Final point this time, I promise. I think. Souya's mask is based off of Souetsu's. This mask does actually serve its purpose, which is sending the souls to the afterlife, so long as they are calmed down enough by the song. If Souetsu wanted her to Bloom, why use a mask that actually works? Had the souls been calmed and the mask not broken, forcing her into an empty vessel state, there's every indication that it would have been a success. Souetsu's likely would have done the same if it had been complete. Why set out to create a perfectly functional mask if you don't intend for it to work? We do lack his side of the story, and there is that strange comment of Souya's about her Blooming face, but honestly I don't think it was his intention. If performing it for the second time made everything better, you can only assume that something initially went wrong. After all, if it was intended for malevolent purposes then why would it also have such a good side, not least one people wouldn't make use of rather than all just turning themselves into the undead? The Tsukimoris have been around for a long time, and they're really, really important people, specifically because they are instrumental in the ritual working out properly. All Ruka does is perform it the way it should be performed, and the way it was successful and safe in the past. The correlation between the two disasters, aka failures, is that something was missing - in other words, the ritual was not done properly, and the result was unintended.
 
At long last, then, in conclusion: I do think Ruka's version of the ritual is the intended version. I don't see any reason for Souetsu or anyone else to want people to Bloom, and it would definitely have been a bad thing if they did. Souya's mask did work, and it had always been designed to do so, but without the song it never stood a chance. As long as the full version of the ritual is performed, Blooming will not occur - because it isn't meant to. The Kiraigou always had a fixed purpose, but it wasn't destruction. Most importantly, I don't see anything suggesting that anyone wanted the DwoS, let alone believed that Blooming was any sort of "destiny".

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#12 OFFLINE   Eiko82

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 07:30 AM

I've seen the 'ritual was suppose to make everyone bloom' theory on GaB's Youtube videos but I don't think it was suppose to do that. I know Souya keeps saying Sayaka's Bloomed Face is the true mask but I believe that he only says that 'cause he went insane after death. I fail to see how making everyone a living dead person would be a good thing.

 

The ritual failed for a number of reasons : the lack of the Lunar Melody being played and the lack of training for the Vessel and the Kanades. In one of the notes found by Ruka in the tunnels, it's mentioned that the Shrine Maidens were suppose to mediate for 100 days and practice being 'empty vessels' in the tunnels. It also mentions that those unable to become empty vessels and make their soul return, would become insane. So it's obvious that being the Vessel wasn't an easy task and yet You and Souya let an mentally unstable woman try and lose herself. It's no wonder she panicked and failed.


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#13 OFFLINE   Yashuu

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 08:08 PM

It's honestly a really interesting theory and it's great to think about, but I do agree with Chelsea in that I think the ritual is trying to prevent the DwS. However, I have always wondered what was meant by Souya's whole "Sakuya's face is the true mask of the lunar eclipse" line, it throws a huge spanner in the works of the story and otherwise seems to lack any context or foreshadowing, besides perhaps the seeming duality of blooming being terrifying and calming.

 

I honestly can't find a way to explain this within the context of the Kiriagou-stops-the-DwS line of thought, so has anyone else got an idea of what Souya means by this?


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#14 OFFLINE   Rezz

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Posted 15 August 2015 - 05:14 PM

I have a theory!

 

It's just kind of one I came up with when re-watching a playthrough of the game: A lot of the documents talking about the masks seem to compare them to the dead, and that the masks are the dead... and the dead become the masks or whatever (this is obvious; a mask's expression doesn't change, a dead person's expression isn't gonna change, and they use the masks to cover up 'blooming'). But then you find that pile of burned letters to Choushirou and it talks about how Aiba thinks the Mask of the Lunar Eclipse represents something more than that. That just LOOKING at it "drags me into the bottom of a deep nothingness. A feeling of dreadful relief floods into me." and there's a note you find just before that from the director's assistant where he's clearly obsessed with the way it looks, he just can't look away, etc.

 

Well what are those things also used to describe?

 

The way people were looking at Sakuya after she reawoke and started blowing up everyone's faces. She was blooming and resonating and no one could look away, as though obsessed. And one of the symptoms of Getsuyuu is that you suddenly get dumped into nothingness, as your sense of self dissipates and you become nothing but an empty shell.

 

So Souya, looking at Sakuya's 'face' gives him the same exact feeling everyone gets while looking at the Mask of the Lunar Eclipse. That you can't look away, that you're being dragged down into a nothingness as you suddenly lose yourself into the Blooming and the spirits take you over. And in that moment, he thinks they're the same thing. The dead became the mask.

 

(And the more I look at this game, the more I start to realize that Blooming and wearing the Masks are basically the same thing, or at least two sides of the same coin. One is just controlled, and you can come back down out of it, while the other is uncontrolled... and unfortunately permanent and deadly.)


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#15 OFFLINE   Abicion

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Posted 16 August 2015 - 02:53 AM

Sakuya lost her life and came back as a twisted reflection of herself with a messed up face so a Fatal Frame game could happen.

 

The ultimate sacrifice to appease the masses.


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